Who Meddled more Putin or Trump? The Collusion Thread visits Venezuela
Wow, a retweet. Off with her head!
paulsurovell said:
Russia madness: Chelsea Manning's candidacy for US Senate is called a Kremlin plot.
Re-tweeted by Neera Tanden, head of the largest Democratic Party think tank in Washington.
LOST said:
Except that your back-and-forth with Nohero and Drummerboy has probably turned off anyone who would bother to read this thread.
Further, maybe even more importantly, the thread title doesn't accurately reflect the discussion you wish to have.
Good. There's too much nonsense and just plain fiction here as arguments against an investigation. I agree, when I post a response to the latest stupid, illogical argument in favor of leaving Trump alone on this topic, it's hard not to sound almost as illogical. It's the old wrestle with a pig, get mud on yourself problem.
Better that people realize that, no matter what the title is, the OP is using it to sling mud hoping that some version sticks.
By the way, the thread is a perfect example of the winning strategy in the 2016 election. Lots of voters saw, not only the criticisms of Trump, but attacks on Hillary Clinton from self-described "liberals". It's logical to assume that voters stayed home as a result of that.
paulsurovell said:
LOST said:
What is the purpose of this thread? You all keep repeating the same "arguments" which have become arguments about the arguments.
OTOH I guess you three can do whatever you wish and I should just ignore this thread.
One purpose of this thread is to provide a forum on whether establishment calls for greater hostility toward nuclear-armed Russia are justified by the facts. In so doing, history matters toward understand what is happening today.
History shows that the Soviet Union did NOT launch missiles when far greater tensions and provocations were present. So, launching missiles because of things being said in the United States is not likely. Using that as a reason not to investigate Trump is ridiculous.
Facts show that Russia has pivoted to using interference and misinformation, to affect countries in the West, as an alternative to any military or economic actions (since they know they will lose in those fights). Putin is the kleptocratic Czar of the oligarchs, with a piece of all their businesses. He's not going to nuke his own properties in the United States or anywhere else.
nohero said:
LOST said:
Except that your back-and-forth with Nohero and Drummerboy has probably turned off anyone who would bother to read this thread.
Further, maybe even more importantly, the thread title doesn't accurately reflect the discussion you wish to have.
Good. There's too much nonsense and just plain fiction here as arguments against an investigation.
I wonder if the writer has in mind the arguments against the proposed investigation of Steele by Grassley and Graham.
paulsurovell said:
nohero said:
I keep asking the basis for your claim that Fusion is "suspicious" for agreeing to provide the information to the FBI. You keep refusing to answer that question,
Asked and answered, twice. Scroll up.
I "scrolled up". It's not there. If you "scroll up" and find it, you can hit "quote".
paulsurovell said:
nohero said:I wonder if the writer has in mind the arguments against the proposed investigation of Steele by Grassley and Graham.
LOST said:
Except that your back-and-forth with Nohero and Drummerboy has probably turned off anyone who would bother to read this thread.
Further, maybe even more importantly, the thread title doesn't accurately reflect the discussion you wish to have.
Good. There's too much nonsense and just plain fiction here as arguments against an investigation.
No, the writer has in mind the OP and the arguments against investigating Trump & Co.
The writer does not have in mind any red herrings employed to defend Trump.
And I thought that getting accused of lying was the worst insult that would show up on this thread.
paulsurovell said:
nohero said:
The continued resort to pointing at what some officials did to push the Iraq War is tiresome. It's not an all-purpose reason or response to every question. Mueller wasn't even a foreign intelligence official, so whatever he said in the 24 seconds of that clip, as an intro to his actual point, doesn't prove your case. If your answer depends on a snippet out-of-context, your answer is lousy.
Calling this video "tiresome" insults the memory of thousands of Americans killed and the plight of hundreds of thousands of Americans seriously injured, as well as hundreds of thousands of Iraqis killed and millions seriously injured, as a result of the lies of the Bush administration which the video exemplifies.Your analogy fails as it is not consistent with the facts.
paulsurovell said:
drummerboy said:Like nohero, in addition to being disrespectful to the millions who've suffered from the lies told by the CIA, FBI Dir Mueller, Bush et al, your head is in the sand.
Also, Nohero's comment about your continual fallback to Iraq is completely correct.
It's pretty insulting to claim I'm insulting the memory of those who lost their lives because of the Iraq invasion. In fact, it's pretty insulting on your part, to use them as part of a defense of Trump.
During Vietnam, war defenders said antiwar protests were disrespectful to the troops. I recall the VP debate in 1980, when Geraldine Ferraro said that the troops in Vietnam died in vain, and George HW Bush said that was the same as saying they died in shame. I recall Bill O'Reilly telling the son of a 9-11 victim that arguing that US support for the mujahideen was a factor in the rise of Al Qaeda that the his father would be ashamed of him. It's the same right-wing playbook, and if you're using that argument, you're losing.
nohero said:
paulsurovell said:
nohero said:I wonder if the writer has in mind the arguments against the proposed investigation of Steele by Grassley and Graham.
LOST said:
Except that your back-and-forth with Nohero and Drummerboy has probably turned off anyone who would bother to read this thread.
Further, maybe even more importantly, the thread title doesn't accurately reflect the discussion you wish to have.
Good. There's too much nonsense and just plain fiction here as arguments against an investigation.
No, the writer has in mind the OP and the arguments against investigating Trump & Co.
The writer does not have in mind any red herrings employed to defend Trump.
So your statement would have been more accurate if it had said something like:
"There's too much nonsense and just plain fiction here as arguments against investigations I like, but of course the arguments against investigations I don't like are just fine."
nohero said:
Wow, a retweet. Off with her head!
paulsurovell said:
Russia madness: Chelsea Manning's candidacy for US Senate is called a Kremlin plot.
Re-tweeted by Neera Tanden, head of the largest Democratic Party think tank in Washington.
What do you think of the original tweet?
nohero said:
paulsurovell said:I "scrolled up". It's not there. If you "scroll up" and find it, you can hit "quote".
nohero said:
I keep asking the basis for your claim that Fusion is "suspicious" for agreeing to provide the information to the FBI. You keep refusing to answer that question,
Asked and answered, twice. Scroll up.
Sorry friend, I'm not going to do your work.
nohero said:
And I thought that getting accused of lying was the worst insult that would show up on this thread.
paulsurovell said:
nohero said:
The continued resort to pointing at what some officials did to push the Iraq War is tiresome. It's not an all-purpose reason or response to every question. Mueller wasn't even a foreign intelligence official, so whatever he said in the 24 seconds of that clip, as an intro to his actual point, doesn't prove your case. If your answer depends on a snippet out-of-context, your answer is lousy.
Calling this video "tiresome" insults the memory of thousands of Americans killed and the plight of hundreds of thousands of Americans seriously injured, as well as hundreds of thousands of Iraqis killed and millions seriously injured, as a result of the lies of the Bush administration which the video exemplifies.Your analogy fails as it is not consistent with the facts.paulsurovell said:
drummerboy said:Like nohero, in addition to being disrespectful to the millions who've suffered from the lies told by the CIA, FBI Dir Mueller, Bush et al, your head is in the sand.
Also, Nohero's comment about your continual fallback to Iraq is completely correct.
It's pretty insulting to claim I'm insulting the memory of those who lost their lives because of the Iraq invasion. In fact, it's pretty insulting on your part, to use them as part of a defense of Trump.
During Vietnam, war defenders said antiwar protests were disrespectful to the troops. I recall the VP debate in 1980, when Geraldine Ferraro said that the troops in Vietnam died in vain, and George HW Bush said that was the same as saying they died in shame. I recall Bill O'Reilly telling the son of a 9-11 victim that arguing that US support for the mujahideen was a factor in the rise of Al Qaeda that the his father would be ashamed of him. It's the same right-wing playbook, and if you're using that argument, you're losing.
You called invoking the lies that caused the invasion of Iraq "tiresome." That insults the memories of those who died and who continue to suffer.
nohero said:
And I thought that getting accused of lying was the worst insult that would show up on this thread.
You can't show the alleged accusation because it didn't happen.
paulsurovell said:
No, the writer has in mind the OP and the arguments against investigating Trump & Co.
The writer does not have in mind any red herrings employed to defend Trump.
So your statement would have been more accurate if it had said something like:
"There's too much nonsense and just plain fiction here as arguments against investigations I like, but of course the arguments against investigations I don't like are just fine."
No. Thanks for the example showing that the "investigate Steele" theme is a red herring, because you'd rather post about that.
paulsurovell said:
nohero said:What do you think of the original tweet?
Wow, a retweet. Off with her head!
paulsurovell said:
Russia madness: Chelsea Manning's candidacy for US Senate is called a Kremlin plot.
Re-tweeted by Neera Tanden, head of the largest Democratic Party think tank in Washington.
A classic! A question instead of an argument, about a red herring!
You can start a new thread, "Is Chelsea Manning's candidacy for US Senate a Kremlin plot?" I'd be happy to respond, "I don't really care."
paulsurovell said:
nohero said:Sorry friend, I'm not going to do your work.
paulsurovell said:I "scrolled up". It's not there. If you "scroll up" and find it, you can hit "quote".
nohero said:
I keep asking the basis for your claim that Fusion is "suspicious" for agreeing to provide the information to the FBI. You keep refusing to answer that question,
Asked and answered, twice. Scroll up.
You already did "my work". You proved it's not there, by declining to show otherwise.
paulsurovell said:
nohero said:You called invoking the lies that caused the invasion of Iraq "tiresome." That insults the memories of those who died and who continue to suffer.
It's pretty insulting to claim I'm insulting the memory of those who lost their lives because of the Iraq invasion. In fact, it's pretty insulting on your part, to use them as part of a defense of Trump.
During Vietnam, war defenders said antiwar protests were disrespectful to the troops. I recall the VP debate in 1984, when Geraldine Ferraro said that the troops in Vietnam died in vain, and George HW Bush said that was the same as saying they died in shame. I recall Bill O'Reilly telling the son of a 9-11 victim that arguing that US support for the mujahideen was a factor in the rise of Al Qaeda that the his father would be ashamed of him. It's the same right-wing playbook, and if you're using that argument, you're losing.
Oh my, you "doubled down" and went "all in" on that lie. You deliberately left out a significant part of what I've written. I "called invoking the lies that caused the invasion of Iraq 'tiresome' " when they are invoked to defend Trump. That extra bit matters. You're illustrating my point comparing what you're doing to the unconscionable things I listed.
nohero said:
Wow, a retweet. Off with her head!
paulsurovell said:
Russia madness: Chelsea Manning's candidacy for US Senate is called a Kremlin plot.
Re-tweeted by Neera Tanden, head of the largest Democratic Party think tank in Washington.
Yeah, we should go off with her head, or just out of office for the corporate Dems she supports:
Excerpt:
" . . . Leading the way in spreading this obviously deranged but acceptable-in-DC conspiracy theory was Neera Tanden, the president of the largest Democratic Party think tank in Washington. Last night, Tanden spread a viral tweet that strongly implied – without even pretending to have a shred of evidence – that the Kremlin had engineered Manning’s candidacy as punishment for Cardin’s hard-line position on Russia:
This conspiracy theory mocks itself. The idea that Vladimir Putin sat in the Kremlin, steaming over Benjamin Cardin’s report on Russia, and thus developed a dastardly plot to rid himself of his daunting Maryland nemesis – “I know how to get rid of Cardin: I’ll have a trans woman who was convicted of felony leaking run against him!” – is too inane to merit any additional ridicule. But this is the climate in Washington: no conspiracy theory is too moronic, too demented, too self-evidently laughable to disqualify its advocates from being taken seriously – as long as it involves accusations that someone is a covert tool of the Kremlin. That’s why the president of the leading Democratic think tank feels free to spread this slanderous trash.
(As a side note: Tanden’s ongoing attempt to smear all of her critics as agents of a foreign power is particularly ironic given that the think tank she runs, the Center for American Progress, conceals the identity of many of its largest donors, but admits that one of its largest contributors is one of the world’s most repressive regimes. If there’s any entity worthy of the type of disloyalty innuendo that Tanden loves to spread, it’s the one she runs:
Here's the latest Tweet by Hillary's former rapid response director, who has called Jill Stein a Russian agent, now smearing whistle-blower hero Chelsea Manning. Russiagate has spawned a culture/mentality of Russia madness equivalent to the Red Scare of the McCarthy period.
I have to admit that those Dem reactions to Manning are a bit over the top.
The problem is those of us who refuse to listen to Our Dear Leader.
Do you notice the Fake News Mainstream Media never likes covering the great and record setting economic news, but rather talks about anything negative or that can be turned into the negative. The Russian Collusion Hoax is dead, except as it pertains to the Dems. Public gets it!
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/953270558573154305
Matt Taibbi, while commenting on Neera Tanden spreading the allegation that Chelsea Manning is a Kremlin tool, gives a description of Russiagate:
. . . this is the climate in Washington: no conspiracy theory is too moronic, too demented, too self-evidently laughable to disqualify its advocates from being taken seriously – as long as it involves accusations that someone is a covert tool of the Kremlin. That’s why the president of the leading Democratic think tank feels free to spread this slanderous trash.https://theintercept.com/2018/01/15/centrist-dems-launch-smear-campaign-against-young-trans-woman-all-to-keep-an-old-straight-white-man-in-power/
no conspiracy theory is too moronic, too demented, too self-evidently laughable to disqualify its advocates from being taken seriously
This can be applied to both sides of the aisle.
jamie said:
no conspiracy theory is too moronic, too demented, too self-evidently laughable to disqualify its advocates from being taken seriously
This can be applied to both sides of the aisle.
Long Greenwald rants that are essentially running interference for Trump, based on "retweets", are moronic, demented and self-evidently laughable.
nohero said:
jamie said:
no conspiracy theory is too moronic, too demented, too self-evidently laughable to disqualify its advocates from being taken seriously
This can be applied to both sides of the aisle.
Long Greenwald rants that are essentially running interference for Trump, based on "retweets", are moronic, demented and self-evidently laughable.
If you're suggesting that this was written by Greenwald, you're wrong.
paulsurovell said:
nohero said:If you're suggesting that this was written by Greenwald, you're wrong.
jamie said:Long Greenwald rants that are essentially running interference for Trump, based on "retweets", are moronic, demented and self-evidently laughable.
no conspiracy theory is too moronic, too demented, too self-evidently laughable to disqualify its advocates from being taken seriouslyThis can be applied to both sides of the aisle.
Your previous post had a cite to a long Greenwald rant from "The Intercept", after the quote from Taibbi. It's the same Greenwald piece that had already been quoted by Ms. Nan.
I read your post, maybe you should also, and also read other people's. Here's yours again -
paulsurovell said:
Matt Taibbi, while commenting on Neera Tanden spreading the allegation that Chelsea Manning is a Kremlin tool, gives a description of Russiagate:
. . . this is the climate in Washington: no conspiracy theory is too moronic, too demented, too self-evidently laughable to disqualify its advocates from being taken seriously – as long as it involves accusations that someone is a covert tool of the Kremlin. That’s why the president of the leading Democratic think tank feels free to spread this slanderous trash.https://theintercept.com/2018/01/15/centrist-dems-launch-smear-campaign-against-young-trans-woman-all-to-keep-an-old-straight-white-man-in-power/
Now, some other poster may comment that this is another example of how this thread consists of "who wrote what about whom", and that poster would be correct - thanks to you.
Not sure Taibbi is the go-to guy for gender-related progressivism, but that's okay.
At least some of the Putin's defenders are dropping the act and revealing their true selves.
nohero said:
paulsurovell said:
nohero said:If you're suggesting that this was written by Greenwald, you're wrong.
jamie said:Long Greenwald rants that are essentially running interference for Trump, based on "retweets", are moronic, demented and self-evidently laughable.
no conspiracy theory is too moronic, too demented, too self-evidently laughable to disqualify its advocates from being taken seriouslyThis can be applied to both sides of the aisle.
Your previous post had a cite to a long Greenwald rant from "The Intercept", after the quote from Taibbi. It's the same Greenwald piece that had already been quoted by Ms. Nan.
I read your post, maybe you should also, and also read other people's. Here's yours again -
paulsurovell said:
Matt Taibbi, while commenting on Neera Tanden spreading the allegation that Chelsea Manning is a Kremlin tool, gives a description of Russiagate:
. . . this is the climate in Washington: no conspiracy theory is too moronic, too demented, too self-evidently laughable to disqualify its advocates from being taken seriously – as long as it involves accusations that someone is a covert tool of the Kremlin. That’s why the president of the leading Democratic think tank feels free to spread this slanderous trash.https://theintercept.com/2018/01/15/centrist-dems-launch-smear-campaign-against-young-trans-woman-all-to-keep-an-old-straight-white-man-in-power/
Now, some other poster may comment that this is another example of how this thread consists of "who wrote what about whom", and that poster would be correct - thanks to you.
Not at all. I made a mistake and you were correct in attributing the quote to Greenwald. I found the article from a Tweet by Taibbi and mistakenly assumed he was the author.
I take responsibility for what I write and admit when I'm wrong, as in this case.
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Russia madness: Chelsea Manning's candidacy for US Senate is called a Kremlin plot.
Re-tweeted by Neera Tanden, head of the largest Democratic Party think tank in Washington.