The Rose Garden and White House happenings: Listening to voters’ concerns
mtierney said:
German concentration camps solved overcrowding by incinerating 6 million Jews and 5 million Christians and “others” — don’t think the word has multiple meanings to those who are brandishing the word today .
People who refer to our border containment as “concentration” camps are uneducated or forgetful.
Learn something for once.
Smedley said:
basil said:Progressives have their own scare word: nazi.
STANV said:This whole "socialist" thing is just made up by GOP as scare tactics for the 2020 election. GOP always runs on scare tactics, remember?
Do two members of Congress and around 6 City Council members nationwide constitute a "wing" ?
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/democratic-socialists-america-scored-wins-midterms-what-s-their-agenda-n941911
And are these folks really socialists?
I also doubt that the word "socialist is as scary anymore to the younger generation than it was to 20-30 years ago, so I am not even sure that it will work, but that is clearly the GOP tactic.
Please educate us on all the democratic candidates running for President over the last 30 years that painted their Republican opponent as Nazi (for scare tactics)
Smedley said:
I’m not calling equivalence or counting tit for tat, so you may be right that gop throws around the word socialist more than Dems say nazi. But I stand by statement that it has emerged as a progressive scare word. AOC calls border facilities concentration camps.
they are concentration camps. Virtually all Democrats are not socialists.
The case for equivalence between Republicans and Democrats is a major fail.
MAJOR.
ridski said:
Learn something for once.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_concentration_camps
Why start now?
Read a recent piece about guards who work at these facilities and how, when they leave the facilities, their clothes stink from having worked all day in these camps. How bad must conditions be if you reek of urine/sweat after leaving...and they aren't in the cages.
Deplorable conditions. But loaded terms like "concentration camp" and "nazi" remain too full of historical baggage and cloud the conversation, even as they apply to our current international disgrace.
The strategy seems clear: take your children, live like caged animals, make things as bad as possible w/o actual executions - "that'll teach 'em not to seek asylum here."
Trump needs to be in prison.
Trump may be re-elected because Republicans are united, not weak and go for the throat. Unlike Democrats with their disunity, many not voting if their "pure" candidate is no nominated and their dithering.
An example is the impeachment drive, stymied by Pelosi. Its a weakness that Democrats may regret. Maybe not Pelosi, a corporate friendly multi-millionaire living a very comfortable life of partying with the elite.
Trump know they're weak and he welcomes it. As he said, a victory for him. No problems for him as long as Pelosi has his back.
drummerboy said:
mtierney said:you do realize, I hope, that in the beginning, the camps were a lot more innocuous. They had to start out somewhere. But they were still concentration camps.
German concentration camps solved overcrowding by incinerating 6 million Jews and 5 million Christians and “others” — don’t think the word has multiple meanings to those who are brandishing the word today .
People who refer to our border containment as “concentration” camps are uneducated or forgetful.
So what was the name of those camps that FDR had set-up for those people from Japan and their kin?
It's amazing with what easethe conservative posters have pivoted the decision away from the racist statements of the President.
And the burgeoning racism among his supporters. Your tacit approval of his behavior is very telling.
ml1 said:
Smedley said:they are concentration camps. Virtually all Democrats are not socialists.
I’m not calling equivalence or counting tit for tat, so you may be right that gop throws around the word socialist more than Dems say nazi. But I stand by statement that it has emerged as a progressive scare word. AOC calls border facilities concentration camps.
The case for equivalence between Republicans and Democrats is a major fail.
MAJOR.
Great. WHo's making the case for equivalence?
theres no excuse, if one supports a racist, one tacitly support racism. we're not talking about some actor that holds private awful disgusting views on race, we are talking about the president and most of the republican congress.
if one is dead set on the bad behavior of Bill Clinton towards woman, then one can not defend Trump, a man accused of multiple sexual assaults including rape.
just admit its not about anything other than your tribe, or taxes, or abortion.
Smedley said:
Great. WHo's making the case for equivalence?
if you're not trying to equate, then why bring it up at all?
proeasdf said:
So what was the name of those camps that FDR had set-up for those people from Japan and their kin?
concentration camps.
hoops said:
theres no excuse, if one supports a racist, one tacitly support racism. we're not talking about some actor that holds private awful disgusting views on race, we are talking about the president and most of the republican congress.
if one is dead set on the bad behavior of Bill Clinton towards woman, then one can not defend Trump, a man accused of multiple sexual assaults including rape.
just admit its not about anything other than your tribe, or taxes, or abortion.
I don't think it can be said any more plainly.
BG9 said:
Trump may be re-elected because Republicans are united, not weak and go for the throat. Unlike Democrats with their disunity, many not voting if their "pure" candidate is no nominated and their dithering.
An example is the impeachment drive, stymied by Pelosi. Its a weakness that Democrats may regret. Maybe not Pelosi, a corporate friendly multi-millionaire living a very comfortable life of partying with the elite.
Trump know they're weak and he welcomes it. As he said, a victory for him. No problems for him as long as Pelosi has his back.
I'm stunned by the Mephistophalean deal struck (and continuously affirmed) by conservative Christians with Trump. It's a perfect example of the unity of the Republicans. Racism is anti-christian. But conservative Christians won't take a stand against it for fear of weakening Trump's reelection chances.
ml1 said:
proeasdf said:concentration camps.
So what was the name of those camps that FDR had set-up for those people from Japan and their kin?
I think they were called internment camps at the time. The term "internment camp", I believe was used so as to NOT confront a sitting president of great popularity. Alternatively, if people desire to confront a sitting president of great unpopularity then the term "concentration camp." Children were being caged at border detention facilities in 2014. Yet, we heard not one word about the situation (let alone the words "concentration camp"). I submit to you that I heard nothing about this issue in 2014.
Politicization of the issue when attempting to confront the President:
a. Border Detention >>> Concentration Camp >>> Authoritarian Nazi >>> Hitler
b. Border Detention >>> Concentration Camp >>> Racist
Lack of Politicization of the issue when President is liked:
Internment Camp (or No News on Issue at All)
This video recalls the time when 100,000 Japanese American citizens were ordered to register and were then relocated to areas in California and Arizona. This was a planned relocation, with facilities prepared in advance.
Like those of us who will never forget the 9/11 attacks, the Pearl Harbor invasion on a quiet Sunday morning , Dec 7, 1941, was stunning to Americans who had been focused on Europe. First reactions were to protect the mainland — looking back decades later, you can readily criticize the decision but, hindsight is always 20-20.
I remember that Sunday in 1941. My parents owned a candy store in Brooklyn and always had a radio on behind the soda fountain — baseball scores to relay to customers,etc. That day, the store was crowded and the radio volume up, as people listened to the news. We didn’t have portable radios, etc, or have TVs at home, so the corner store served as a meeting place.
Our newsstand, which back then sold multiple daily editions of the 7 or 8 N.Y. daily newspapers, was a place to get the news of the world.
I remember being scared.
proeasdf said:
I think they were called internment camps at the time. The term "internment camp", I believe was used so as to NOT confront a sitting president of great popularity. Alternatively, if people desire to confront a sitting president of great unpopularity then the term "concentration camp." Children were being caged at border detention facilities in 2014. Yet, we heard not one word about the situation (let alone the words "concentration camp"). I submit to you that I heard nothing about this issue in 2014.
Politicization of the issue when attempting to confront the President:
a. Border Detention >>> Concentration Camp >>> Authoritarian Nazi >>> Hitler
b. Border Detention >>> Concentration Camp >>> Racist
Lack of Politicization of the issue when President is liked:
Internment Camp (or No News on Issue at All)
regardless of the decades of whitewashing, there are plenty of historical sources today that call those concentration camps. So as of 2019, your simple analysis is no longer that simple.
for example at ushistory.org:
Succumbing to bad advice and popular opinion, President Roosevelt signed an executive order in February 1942 ordering the RELOCATION of all Americans of Japanese ancestry to CONCENTRATION CAMPS in the interior of the United States. http://www.ushistory.org/us/51e.asp
What's the point in debating what a concentration camp is and isn't? The words overwhelmingly elicit a perception of Nazis in WWII. So when a public figure uses the term that's what they're referring to, whether they mean to or not.
ml1 said:
proeasdf said:regardless of the decades of whitewashing, there are plenty of historical sources today that call those concentration camps. So as of 2019, your simple analysis is no longer that simple.
I think they were called internment camps at the time. The term "internment camp", I believe was used so as to NOT confront a sitting president of great popularity. Alternatively, if people desire to confront a sitting president of great unpopularity then the term "concentration camp." Children were being caged at border detention facilities in 2014. Yet, we heard not one word about the situation (let alone the words "concentration camp"). I submit to you that I heard nothing about this issue in 2014.
Politicization of the issue when attempting to confront the President:
a. Border Detention >>> Concentration Camp >>> Authoritarian Nazi >>> Hitler
b. Border Detention >>> Concentration Camp >>> Racist
Lack of Politicization of the issue when President is liked:
Internment Camp (or No News on Issue at All)
for example at ushistory.org:
Succumbing to bad advice and popular opinion, President Roosevelt signed an executive order in February 1942 ordering the RELOCATION of all Americans of Japanese ancestry to CONCENTRATION CAMPS in the interior of the United States. http://www.ushistory.org/us/51e.asp
Take a look at the NYT story. Especially, the following words: "evacuation" and "good humor".
PS However, they did call the train the "Concentration Camp Special." This moniker does not be consistent with the other reporting (namely, evacuation and good humor).
proeasdf said:
Take a look at the NYT story. Especially, the following words: "evacuation" and "good humor".
PS However, they did call the train the "Concentration Camp Special." This moniker does not be consistent with the other reporting (namely, evacuation and good humor).
are you trying to make the point that people today should be emulating the type of propaganda reporting that occurred during WWII?
are you arguing the internment and evacuation of Japanese Americans was not a racist act? Are you arguing about the terminology between internment and concentration? its silly.
the conditions that these legal asylum seekers are put into, the fact that children are forcibly removed from parents, no matter their ages or dependencies, they are being kept in cages, prisons without anything that any of us would call essential, is what leads to calling these private prisons concentration camps, but whatever you decide to label them as, they are inhumane.
And yet I read these defenses as if its normal, its not. its atrocious. it a horror caused and perpetrated as governmental policy.
supported by republicans. funded by us all
ml1 said:
proeasdf said:are you trying to make the point that people today should be emulating the type of propaganda reporting that occurred during WWII?
Take a look at the NYT story. Especially, the following words: "evacuation" and "good humor".
PS However, they did call the train the "Concentration Camp Special." This moniker does not be consistent with the other reporting (namely, evacuation and good humor).
I am trying to point out that there appears to be a link in how news is reported based on whether the media generally likes or identifies with the president.
Do you believe that the media would be using fear words such as "concentration camp" to describe these border detention facilities if these border detentions were being reported on during BHO's presidency?
proeasdf said:
I am trying to point out that there appears to be a link in how news is reported based on whether the media generally likes or identifies with the president.
Do you believe that the media would be using fear words such as "concentration camp" to describe these border detention facilities if these border detentions were being reported on during BHO's presidency?
some members of the media would and others wouldn't. Just like now.
ml1 said:
proeasdf said:some members of the media would and others wouldn't. Just like now.
I am trying to point out that there appears to be a link in how news is reported based on whether the media generally likes or identifies with the president.
Do you believe that the media would be using fear words such as "concentration camp" to describe these border detention facilities if these border detentions were being reported on during BHO's presidency?
If so, why was the media not reporting on the caging of children in border detention facilities in 2014 (at least I did not hear about in the media nor on MOL)?
fwiw, people on the left were criticizing Obama too for his immigration policies. here' the ACLU headline from 2015
President Obama Needs to Stop Repeating FDR’s Worst Mistake and End Family Detention Now
proeasdf said:
ml1 said:If so, why was the media not reporting on the caging of children in border detention facilities in 2014 (at least I did not hear about in the media nor on MOL)?
proeasdf said:some members of the media would and others wouldn't. Just like now.
I am trying to point out that there appears to be a link in how news is reported based on whether the media generally likes or identifies with the president.
Do you believe that the media would be using fear words such as "concentration camp" to describe these border detention facilities if these border detentions were being reported on during BHO's presidency?
Was that happening around the same time as when Obama wore a tan suit and the right went apeshit? Because they were probably covering that instead.
Smedley said:
What's the point in debating what a concentration camp is and isn't? The words overwhelmingly elicit a perception of Nazis in WWII. So when a public figure uses the term that's what they're referring to, whether they mean to or not.
The point is to decide whether this loaded language — as you and proeasdf astutely observe, the term is not neutral — is an obfuscation, a provocation or a note of clarity.
proeasdf said:
I am trying to point out that there appears to be a link in how news is reported based on whether the media generally likes or identifies with the president.
Have news reporters been calling the detention facilities a concentration camp?
ml1 said:
fwiw, people on the left were criticizing Obama too for his immigration policies. here' the ACLU headline from 2015
President Obama Needs to Stop Repeating FDR’s Worst Mistake and End Family Detention Now
Agreed, the ACLU was criticizing BHO on family detention. However, I do not see the scare words "concentration camp" used in the ACLU write-up (linked above). Additionally, I don't remember media outlets reporting this same same issue when BHO was president.
It appears that the media are focusing on this issue under DJT because this is consistent with the resistance pledge (of most of the media). Which ultimately means that what is covered in the media and how it is covered (are scare words used) depends on whether the media generally likes or dislikes the sitting president.
PS Does NOT mean that this issue should NOT be fixed. Sometimes it is important to examine the motivation of those doing the reporting and their editors (in order to get a balanced picture of the issue).
DaveSchmidt said:
Smedley said:The point is to decide whether this loaded language — as you and proeasdf astutely observe, the term is not neutral — is an obfuscation, a provocation or a note of clarity.
What's the point in debating what a concentration camp is and isn't? The words overwhelmingly elicit a perception of Nazis in WWII. So when a public figure uses the term that's what they're referring to, whether they mean to or not.
proeasdf said:Have news reporters been calling the detention facilities a concentration camp?
I am trying to point out that there appears to be a link in how news is reported based on whether the media generally likes or identifies with the president.
YES!!!!
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If you’re going to lecture others about being uneducated, please get your facts right. About one-third of the six million Jews died in shootings and other violence, not in camps. The Christians figure is in dispute but, regardless, also isn’t about the camps. And incineration was almost entirely done in extermination camps, not concentration camps.