The Rose Garden and White House happenings: Listening to voters’ concerns

ml1 said:

you don't need to explain all this to me.  I've read and studied quite a lot about the folks you're describing.  The books "Dying of Whiteness" by Jonathan Metzl, "The Left Behind" by Robert Wuthnow and "America:  The Farewell Tour" by Chris Hedges are all very good depictions of the destruction wrought in "red" America by bipartisan neoliberal policies of the past 35 years.  I understand their despair and frustration, and I get how it has led the country to a place where Trump can become president.  And a lot of his supporters are likely well-meaning people who have been led astray by an orchestrated, decades long campaign of misinformation and disinformation.

But understanding it and empathizing with those people doesn't excuse the overt anger, hatred, bigotry, misogyny and xenophobia on display at Trump rallies.  There are lots of people in the same circumstances who have managed to retain their moral compasses and resist turning to Trump's neo-fascism for answers. 

 just as I suspected. No response from mtierney on this. Only on my comment that she could use to mischaracterize my POV on the issue. Typical. 

Red_Barchetta said:
 This is also an opportunity for him to show all of us how much smarter he is than all the generals. 

 There is no way President Trump can proceed, no matter the direction chosen, in the  climate of partisan hate today. Damned if he did; damned if he didn’t.

Two articles in today’s NYT target the disconnect in the Democratic playbook.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/21/us/politics/biden-democrats-race.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/22/nyregion/albany-laws-ny-progressive.html

mtierney said:
 There is no way President Trump can proceed, no matter the direction chosen, in the  climate of partisan hate today. Damned if he did; damned if he didn’t.


Two articles in today’s NYT target the disconnect in the Democratic playbook.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/21/us/politics/biden-democrats-race.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/22/nyregion/albany-laws-ny-progressive.html

 wrong. A bunch of us right here said it was the right call. 

ml1 said:
he claims he called off a retaliatory strike because it was disproportional to shooting down an unmanned drone.  If that's true, Trump's refusal to go to war with Iran (at least at this time) will be the first thing I agree with him doing.

 this was actually quoted in the reply you were responding to, for jeebus sake. 

Let’s just focus on Iran. If we go to war with iran it will be a shooting war and it will be ugly. If on the other hand we don’t go to war with Iran they will develop a nuclear weapon and it will be ugly.

Of course there is a solution, it is called the Obama deal with Iran, which of course people like Trump, Bolton, Pompeo, and Tierney despise (because Obama is black). So let’s just blunder into alternative 1 or 2 above.

Or his alter ego....

basil said:
Let’s just focus on Iran. If we go to war with iran it will be a shooting war and it will be ugly. If on the other hand we don’t go to war with Iran they will develop a nuclear weapon and it will be ugly.


Of course there is a solution, it is called the Obama deal with Iran, which of course people like Trump, Bolton, Pompeo, and Tierney despise (because Obama is black). So let’s just blunder into alternative 1 or 2 above.

 Sounds like a call to tribalism (my take on your analysis:  new administration (AKA new tribe) is filled with enemies of old administration (AKA old tribe)).

By-the-way, please provide proof that mtierney despises BHO (let alone despises BHO because he is black). Do we even know if mtierney voted for BHO?

I am sure that you know what type of people use ad-hominem attacks.  Many MOL readers interpret use of an ad-hominem attack as an implicit acknowledgement by the attacker of their own impotence and lack of substance in the attacker's argument.

I believe mtierney has stated that she voted for BHO in 2008. Given the fact that the woman now supports tearing toddlers from their mothers arms and throwing them in concentration camps, it is hard to imagine why. Perhaps she was high. 

That said, the entire first half of this thread is proof of the contempt mtierney holds for BHO. 

As long as concern for helping those suffering is political, rather than humanitarian, progress toward a solution is blocked. Handwringing and finger-pointing are cheap.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/24/us/politics/migrants-emergency-aid-border.html

I would say that concern for suffering is a basic sign of humanity.  Your lack of concern for suffering is very political.  

Please don't ever tell us again that you oppose abortion because you care about children.  You have made it perfectly clear that you don't care about children in the slightest.  

.

mtierney said:
As long as concern for helping those suffering is political, rather than humanitarian, progress toward a solution is blocked. Handwringing and finger-pointing are cheap.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/24/us/politics/migrants-emergency-aid-border.html

mtierney said:
As long as concern for helping those suffering is political, rather than humanitarian, progress toward a solution is blocked. Handwringing and finger-pointing are cheap.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/24/us/politics/migrants-emergency-aid-border.html

 that's a strange interpretation you have.  

The aid package poses a difficult dilemma for Democrats, who are torn between their desire to champion humanitarian help for migrants and their concern that any money they approve will be used by the Trump administration to advance what they consider to be a fundamentally inhumane set of policies. 

Given the track record of this administration, it would seem to be a fair assessment of what they might do with any funding allocated for humanitarian relief.

The US now has more people in concentration camps than the Nazis (1.0) did at the start of WWII.

ml1 said:
Given the track record of this administration, it would seem to be a fair assessment of what they might do with any funding allocated for humanitarian relief.

 Therefore, the children must continue to suffer? By whose “assessment”? 

mtierney said:

ml1 said:
Given the track record of this administration, it would seem to be a fair assessment of what they might do with any funding allocated for humanitarian relief.

 Therefore, the children must continue to suffer? By whose “assessment”? 

 The monster you voted for could end the children's suffering at any time.  

mtierney said:
 Therefore, the children must continue to suffer? By whose “assessment”? 

 there is a very real concern that the funds would be used to make the suffering worse. 

It's a sad state of affairs in this country when we have a presidential administration deeply committed to cruelty. 

You are completely misplacing where the blame for this suffering lies. 

mtierney said:
 Therefore, the children must continue to suffer? By whose “assessment”? 

 By your assessment, obviously.   

ml1 said:

mtierney said:
 Therefore, the children must continue to suffer? By whose “assessment”? 

 there is a very real concern that the funds would be used to make the suffering worse. 
It's a sad state of affairs in this country when we have a presidential administration deeply committed to cruelty. 
You are completely misplacing where the blame for this suffering lies. 

 well, to be fair to mt, she probably believes it's Obama's fault, since that's what Trump keeps on saying.

ml1 said:
 there is a very real concern that the funds would be used to make the suffering worse. 
It's a sad state of affairs in this country when we have a presidential administration deeply committed to cruelty. 
You are completely misplacing where the blame for this suffering lies. 

 “Concern” trumps watching suffering continue year after year? The suffering is “real”, too. The immigration issue needs to be shelved until after the 2020 election? Tell that tale to those at the boarder. 

If the Dems focused on the jobs they currently held, they would view compromise as a viable approach towards helping end the border crises.

mtierney said:
 “Concern” trumps watching suffering continue year after year? The suffering is “real”, too. The immigration issue needs to be shelved until after the 2020 election? Tell that tale to those at the boarder. 
If the Dems focused on the jobs they currently held, they would view compromise as a viable approach towards helping end the border crises.

 I know you are unreachable by logic and evidence.  But there is NO WAY that what is going on at the border is the fault of Democrats in Congress.  Try to think back and recall who it was that blew up the bipartisan immigration deal that was negotiated by congressional leaders a couple of years back. 

in case you want to have a reminder:

Trump says some immigrants from 'shithole countries' as he rejects bipartisan deal

ml1 said:
 I know you are unreachable by logic and evidence.  

 And yet you persist in trying.

STANV said:

ml1 said:
 I know you are unreachable by logic and evidence.  

 And yet you persist in trying.

 ... expecting a different result. 

There’s a word for that.   

Some rats fleeing the sinking ship this afternoon and others joining it. I think back with fondness to that kinder, gentler time when the doings of our nation's vermin were not so newsworthy.

Apparently, after evacuating Camp Trump due to the hellish conditions and poor sanitation, the Trump Administration is now moving hundreds of children back into those same conditions.

I wonder whether these people realize that they will eventually be put on trial for their actions, either here or abroad?

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/25/us/politics/border-funding-vote.html

“Speaker Nancy Pelosi of California faced a mini-rebellion in her ranks over the aid measure, with many liberals and Hispanic lawmakers arguing that any bill that sent money to the agencies that have carried out Mr. Trump’s harsh immigration tactics would enable his agenda.

“Still, four Democrats voted no: Representatives Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez of New York, Ilhan Omar of Minnesota, Ayanna Pressley of Massachusetts and Rashida Tlaib of Michigan. The lawmakers, all freshmen, have quickly made names for themselves as outspoken progressives willing to buck their party, often as a bloc.”

Who cares if children suffer —as long as the politicians polish their own images to their constituents.

Spitefulness and its kin defined: vengeful, mean, cruel, rancorous. Spiteful, revengeful, vindictive refer to a desire to inflict injury on someone, usually in return for one received. Spiteful implies a mean or malicious desire for (often petty) revenge.Revengeful implies a deep,powerful, and continued intent to repay a wrong. 

The director of the DHS can stop this with an email. In the meantime, they cam send more judges down there to process cases faster, and change the policy that’s currently turning away aid packages including baby formula, food and diapers donated to the camps. Trump doesn’t need congress to make this end. He doesn’t want to. This is a message - seek asylum in America and we will take your children and you never see them again.

mtierney said:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/25/us/politics/border-funding-vote.html


“Speaker Nancy Pelosi of California faced a mini-rebellion in her ranks over the aid measure, with many liberals and Hispanic lawmakers arguing that any bill that sent money to the agencies that have carried out Mr. Trump’s harsh immigration tactics would enable his agenda.

“Still, four Democrats voted no: Representatives Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez of New York, Ilhan Omar of Minnesota, Ayanna Pressley of Massachusetts and Rashida Tlaib of Michigan. The lawmakers, all freshmen, have quickly made names for themselves as outspoken progressives willing to buck their party, often as a bloc.”


Who cares if children suffer —as long as the politicians polish their own images to their constituents.
Spitefulness and its kin defined: vengeful, mean, cruel, rancorous. Spiteful, revengeful, vindictive refer to a desire to inflict injury on someone, usually in return for one received. Spiteful implies a mean or malicious desire for (often petty) revenge.Revengeful implies a deep,powerful, and continued intent to repay a wrong. 

 you have it completely backwards.  It's the members of the Trump administration who are "polishing" their images for their xenophobic followers.  It is they who are causing the children to suffer.  You may think they are mistaken, but the four Democrats who voted against this bill did so out of the very reasonable belief that giving the administration more funding would only lead to more stringent crackdowns on immigrants and MORE suffering and no amelioration of the conditions that now exist at the border.