Was Rep. Ilhan Omar being anti-semitic?
paulsurovell said:
If (hypothetically) Ilhan cited this as evidence of a depraved element in the Israeli Knesset would that be anti-Semitic?
Even Likud has kicked Hazan out of the party. He won't be in the next Knesset. He has been banned from Knesset multiple times over various wrongdoings.
paulsurovell said:
There are many Jews who are conscious of the evil of anti-Semitism (myself included) who view the allegations of anti-Semitism made against Ilhan as disguised attacks against her criticisms of Israel and the Israel lobby (AIPAC). The article I posted illustrates the dehumanization of Palestinians that is reflected in Israel's policies toward Palestinians. It is a graphic example of why criticism of Israel's occupation and historic and ongoing human rights violations of the Palestinians needs to be heard.
Regardless of how you interpret Ilhan's comments, if you cannot acknowledge that criticism of Israel is often falsely equated with anti-Semitism -- in order to suppress criticism of Israel's policies -- you are not debating in good faith.
These comments by Dave Zirin and M J Rosenberg, which I think I posted earlier, sum up my position:
https://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/watch/batya-ungar-sargon-omar-discussing-foreign-allegiance-is-anti-semitic-1455436355706
https://forward.com/opinion/395676/its-time-for-aipac-to-register-as-a-foreign-agent/
I've more than once made it clear that it is easy to criticize Israel without being anti-Semitic. I do it quite regularly. I have also made it quite clear that Rep. Omar is not, IMHO, an anti-Semite, although she has occasionally used language that is anti-Semitic. I don't think you are an anti-Semite, either, but as I said above your use of examples that are so far outside what is being discussed leaves room, just as her comments did, for the interpretation that you would defend anti-Semitic comments if they were directed at Israel or its supporters. You post directly above is condescending and insulting. The least you can do is actually read Dr. Ungar-Sargon's article instead of posting a reaction to it. I am also calling you out on using Rep. Omar's first name. She is a United States Representative. When you refer to men, ie PM Netanyahu in your post above, you use surnames. Why do you think less respect should be directed at Rep. Omar?
DaveSchmidt said:
paulsurovell said:If (hypothetically) someone reading this thread had deemed fault-finding alone anti-Semitic, that person might think so. Did you have anybody in mind?
If (hypothetically) Ilhan cited this as evidence of a depraved element in the Israeli Knesset would that be anti-Semitic?
"Deemed" here is a euphemism for "demagogued" (sp?)
But to answer your question -- Chuck Schumer.
max_weisenfeld said:
paulsurovell said:I've more than once made it clear that it is easy to criticize Israel without being anti-Semitic. I do it quite regularly. I have also made it quite clear that Rep. Omar is not, IMHO, an anti-Semite, although she has occasionally used language that is anti-Semitic. I don't think you are an anti-Semite, either, but as I said above your use of examples that are so far outside what is being discussed leaves room, just as her comments did, for the interpretation that you would defend anti-Semitic comments if they were directed at Israel or its supporters. You post directly above is condescending and insulting. The least you can do is actually read Dr. Ungar-Sargon's article instead of posting a reaction to it. I am also calling you out on using Rep. Omar's first name. She is a United States Representative. When you refer to men, ie PM Netanyahu in your post above, you use surnames. Why do you think less respect should be directed at Rep. Omar?
There are many Jews who are conscious of the evil of anti-Semitism (myself included) who view the allegations of anti-Semitism made against Ilhan as disguised attacks against her criticisms of Israel and the Israel lobby (AIPAC). The article I posted illustrates the dehumanization of Palestinians that is reflected in Israel's policies toward Palestinians. It is a graphic example of why criticism of Israel's occupation and historic and ongoing human rights violations of the Palestinians needs to be heard.
Regardless of how you interpret Ilhan's comments, if you cannot acknowledge that criticism of Israel is often falsely equated with anti-Semitism -- in order to suppress criticism of Israel's policies -- you are not debating in good faith.
These comments by Dave Zirin and M J Rosenberg, which I think I posted earlier, sum up my position:
https://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/watch/batya-ungar-sargon-omar-discussing-foreign-allegiance-is-anti-semitic-1455436355706
https://forward.com/opinion/395676/its-time-for-aipac-to-register-as-a-foreign-agent/
My use of her first name is like when I say "Bernie" or "Tulsi" or "Cory." I don't think any of them, including Ilhan, would mind it.
Not sure what article by Batya you are referring to.
Edited to Add: And since you mentioned PM Netanyahu, would you rather I go along with the crowd and say "Bibi?"
paulsurovell said:
"Deemed" here is a euphemism for "demagogued" (sp?)
But to answer your question -- Chuck Schumer.
Oh. I assumed, since you posed it here, that your question was addressed to us.
Here's another Op-Ed, highly relevant but missing from this discussion.
Excerpts:
Time to Break the Silence on Palestine
Martin Luther King Jr. courageously spoke out about the Vietnam War. We must do the same when it comes to this grave injustice of our time.
By Michelle Alexander January 19, 2019
. . . Until very recently, the entire Congress has remained mostly silent on the human rights nightmare that has unfolded in the occupied territories. Our elected representatives, who operate in a political environment where Israel's political lobby holds well-documented power, have consistently minimized and deflected criticism of the State of Israel, even as it has grown more emboldened in its occupation of Palestinian territory and adopted some practices reminiscent of apartheid in South Africa and Jim Crow segregation in the United States.
Many civil rights activists and organizations have remained silent as well, not because they lack concern or sympathy for the Palestinian people, but because they fear loss of funding from foundations, and false charges of anti-Semitism. They worry, as I once did, that their important social justice work will be compromised or discredited by smear campaigns.
Similarly, many students are fearful of expressing support for Palestinian rights because of the McCarthyite tactics of secret organizations like Canary Mission, which blacklists those who publicly dare to support boycotts against Israel, jeopardizing their employment prospects and future careers.
. . . And so, if we are to honor King’s message and not merely the man, we must condemn Israel’s actions: unrelenting violations of international law, continued occupation of the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and Gaza, home demolitions and land confiscations. We must cry out at the treatment of Palestinians at checkpoints, the routine searches of their homes and restrictions on their movements, and the severely limited access to decent housing, schools, food, hospitals and water that many of them face.
We must not tolerate Israel’s refusal even to discuss the right of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes, as prescribed by United Nations resolutions, and we ought to question the U.S. government funds that have supported multiple hostilities and thousands of civilian casualties in Gaza, as well as the $38 billion the U.S. government has pledged in military support to Israel.
And finally, we must, with as much courage and conviction as we can muster, speak out against the system of legal discrimination that exists inside Israel, a system complete with, according to Adalah, the Legal Center for Arab Minority Rights in Israel, more than 50 laws that discriminate against Palestinians — such as the new nation-state law that says explicitly that only Jewish Israelis have the right of self-determination in Israel, ignoring the rights of the Arab minority that makes up 21 percent of the population.
. . . In view of these developments, it seems the days when critiques of Zionism and the actions of the State of Israel can be written off as anti-Semitism are coming to an end. There seems to be increased understanding that criticism of the policies and practices of the Israeli government is not, in itself, anti-Semitic.
[ . . . ]
DaveSchmidt said:
paulsurovell said:Oh. I assumed, since you posed it here, that your question was addressed to us.
"Deemed" here is a euphemism for "demagogued" (sp?)
But to answer your question -- Chuck Schumer.
It was posed here not to elicit a response, but to illustrate the horrific situation of Palestinians at the hands of the Israelis which is the context of Ilhan's critical statements, rarely mentioned in discussions about the statements.
cramer said:
paulsurovell said:Even Likud has kicked Hazan out of the party. He won't be in the next Knesset. He has been banned from Knesset multiple times over various wrongdoings.
If (hypothetically) Ilhan cited this as evidence of a depraved element in the Israeli Knesset would that be anti-Semitic?
Not to worry, Likud has invited Otzma Yehudi (the Israeli KKK) to join its coalition.
In related news, MoveOn members voted 74% to urge Democratic Presidential candidates to boycott the AIPAC conference.
https://newyork.cbslocal.com/video/4063529-rep-omar-about-9-11-some-people-did-something/
9-11 was something, alright. I’ll give her that.
Robert_Casotto said:
https://newyork.cbslocal.com/video/4063529-rep-omar-about-9-11-some-people-did-something/
9-11 was something, alright. I’ll give her that.
the reaction to what she said might be the dumbest faux outrage yet. But what else should we expect from the stupidest man on television
Rep. Omar made a remark about certain Americans having loyalty to Israel and was attacked as an anti-semite.
Donald Trump, addressing a group of Jewish Americans calls Netanyahu "your Prime Minister" and Israel "your country" and many of these Americans consider him a friend of the Jews.
Go figure.
one man’s something is another man’s being hosed down in Hoboken after barely getting out alive and then hearing that a couple of his lifelong buddies and unspeakable numbers of others didn't make it out.
Robert_Casotto said:
one man’s something is another man’s being hosed down in Hoboken after barely getting out alive and then hearing that a couple of his lifelong buddies and unspeakable numbers of others didn't make it out.
What does that have to do with the Jews?
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It's an excellent commentary and totally consistent with everything she said previously.