Tulsi: Trump: Stop hiding Saudi role in 911 and protecting Al Qaeda
nohero said:
paulsurovell said:
nohero said:
paulsurovell said:
The answer to that question is that the US should have coordinated its withdrawal with the Syrian government which is the lawful authority where US troops were positioned. We had no right to be in Syria in the first place -- neither under the US constitution nor under international law.
No, Paul, the presence of U.S. personnel had nothing to do with keeping Assad from moving against the Kurds. They were defending themselves.
The presence of U.S. personnel was keeping Turkey from bombing and attacking Kurdish population centers.
The real answer to the question is that the U.S. should have continued the activities which were already taking place, to create security along the border between Turkey and the Kurdish areas in Syria, to meet security concerns in Turkey. Read this and look at the picture.
Just 11 days ago -- US, Turkish forces shake hands in the security mechanism at the Syria border. "The patrol allowed both militaries to observe first-hand progress on destroyed [SDF] fortification that are a concern for Turkey."
Now 6th day of Turkish military operation there.https://twitter.com/Elizabeth_McLau/status/1183695506112827392?s=20
Assumes the US could not coordinate its withdrawal with the Syrian government, Russia and Turkey. An assumption based on odious regime-change mentality.
Trump stopped coordinating. That's what you support. Don't call other people "odious".
Trump never coordinated with the Syrian government. I am compelled to call a pro-regime-change war mentality odious because that's what it is.
paulsurovell said:
No, I pretty much agree with the whole statement.
Which is inconsistent with your earlier expressed opinions.
paulsurovell said:
nohero said:
Two thoughts:
1. No, it's not. There are better ways than just killing a lot of the people who stand in Assad's way.
2. You've been corrected before, but you ignore it. No, the positions of those diplomats do not support your arguments here.
Go on, keep trying to defend your glorious regime-change war before it completely unravels.
Okay, we get it. You're okay with slaughtering the Kurds because Assad is in charge of Syria.
DaveSchmidt said:
paulsurovell said:
Here's a good comment on who is being arrogant:
I’ll try this instead: It’s possible to support your objective and still grasp what a terrible position the Kurds are in. Their suffering may not matter to you in the big picture that you have your eyes on, but it seems to me like something that any policymaker or peace advocate should be accounting for.
Of course the Kurds are in a terrible situation and of course I'm concerned about their suffering. But they have chosen the best path to improve the situation and minimize the suffering. And had Trump coordinated our withdrawal with the Syrians and Russians, the situation and suffering would have been far less onerous. But whether or not he wanted to, in a well-prepped society where the media and political class demonize a politician who has the temerity to meet with Assad, Trump wasn't going to do that.
paulsurovell said:
Trump never coordinated with the Syrian government. I am compelled to call a pro-regime-change war mentality odious because that's what it is.
So you're in agreement with Trump, to turn the fate of the Kurds over to Assad and walk away, washing our hands of the whole thing. Just another ethnic group that Assad can decimate to his heart's content.
nohero said:
paulsurovell said:
nohero said:
Two thoughts:
1. No, it's not. There are better ways than just killing a lot of the people who stand in Assad's way.
2. You've been corrected before, but you ignore it. No, the positions of those diplomats do not support your arguments here.
Go on, keep trying to defend your glorious regime-change war before it completely unravels.
Okay, we get it. You're okay with slaughtering the Kurds because Assad is in charge of Syria.
I'm looking for that emoticon that Terp used to reply to you on another thread that means "crazy," but I can't find it.
nohero said:
paulsurovell said:
Trump never coordinated with the Syrian government. I am compelled to call a pro-regime-change war mentality odious because that's what it is.
So you're in agreement with Trump, to turn the fate of the Kurds over to Assad and walk away, washing our hands of the whole thing. Just another ethnic group that Assad can decimate to his heart's content.
No, for the umpteenth time, Trump should have coodinated his move with Assad and Putin.
nohero said:
paulsurovell said:
No, I pretty much agree with the whole statement.
Which is inconsistent with your earlier expressed opinions.
Tell me why.
paulsurovell said:
Of course the Kurds are in a terrible situation and of course I'm concerned about their suffering. But they have chosen the best path to improve the situation and minimize the suffering.
No, the "best path" was denied to them when Trump threw them overboard. Now they're choosing from the "least worst", and all the choices are bad.
paulsurovell said:
nohero said:
paulsurovell said:
No, I pretty much agree with the whole statement.
Which is inconsistent with your earlier expressed opinions.
Tell me why.
The fact that your earlier expressed opinions approved a different result is a big clue.
paulsurovell said:
No, for the umpteenth time, Trump should have coodinated his move with Assad and Putin.
Repeating it doesn't mean it's an intelligent comment. Trump could have had the U.S. continue to work with Turkey with respect to securing the border between Turkey and the Kurdish lands in Syria. You've been shown information about that.
Instead of that, Trump triggered a worse situation.
Posting, not because I find it relevant to arguments about regime change, but because I think the experiment in polity building the Kurds had been trying was interesting in its own right:
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/10/rojava-kurdish-enclave-syria-doomed-start-turkey-trump.html
The article is unfortunately very heavily focused along Americentric lines (eg passages about "U.S.-Kurdish relations"), but I think posters such as @terp might be interested in the talk about "“libertarian municipalism." If anyone comes across an article that more squarely focuses on that, and less on US involvement, happy to replace the link I have above.
"If you pretended you oversaw the most powerful military, diplomatic corps, and liberal political system in human history, and you wanted to discover the single action that would threaten a friendly people with atrocities, war crimes, and genocide; expose U.S. troops to attack by a foreign state’s military; scatter Islamist terrorist prisoners to the winds and invigorate their movement; boost anti-democratic, murderous regimes in Damascus, Ankara, Moscow, and Tehran; shred longstanding liberal alliances; and demoralize citizens of your own nation—you could have barely topped what President Trump has just done."
https://newrepublic.com/article/155366/trump-syria-kurds-myth-madman-theory
What the Kurds and Assad have agreed to thus far:
https://twitter.com/Dannymakkisyria/status/1183685519764611072
Several of the 29 points thus far:
Putin couldn't have come out better if he'd actually picked Trump himself.
Trump could have exited in coordination with the Kurds, Syrians and Russians with minimal impact on the Kurds, but Putin-Assad hysteria in US politics made that impossible.
Putin "came out better" because Assad asked him for help in 2015. Why? Because Obama embarked on regime-change in Syria in 2013. Trump was left holding the bag.
Don't say, "the Kurds are allied with Assad now" as if they think that's a wonderful, "why didn't we think of this sooner" development.
Well as soon as they were withdrawn, the Kurds joined Assad and regime-change got taken down several notches.
Don't you know that the Kurds are now allies with Assad?— Paul Surovell (@paulsurovell) October 16, 2019
People will think you're clueless.
"Russia Today" victory dance at vacated U.S. military facility.
Left in a hurry: RT films inside abandoned US military base at Manbij, Syriahttps://t.co/iXcyOzv87Z pic.twitter.com/gHCN9ARXsT
nohero said:
Don't say, "the Kurds are allied with Assad now" as if they think that's a wonderful, "why didn't we think of this sooner" development.
People will think you're clueless.
People duped by the media, who deny Syria's sovereignty, who embrace Syrian regime-change have been proven to be the clueless ones.
nohero said:
"Russia Today" victory dance at vacated U.S. military facility.
The reporter said the Kurds took control of the base. You call that a "victory dance"?
paulsurovell said:
People duped by the media, who deny Syria's sovereignty, who embrace Syrian regime-change have been proven to be the clueless ones.
That irrelevant rant aside - Don't say "the Kurds are allied with Assad now" as if they think that's a wonderful, "why didn't we think of this sooner" development.
"The kurds lost their homeland in Syria which they fought for with US forces in the battle agaist Isis, losing 11 thousand of their men and women. Tonight they were sold out by Trump who says he saved millions of lives. It will be remembered by the kurds as the greatest betrayal."
https://twitter.com/RichardEngel/status/1184899422737633280?s=20
nohero said:
paulsurovell said:
People duped by the media, who deny Syria's sovereignty, who embrace Syrian regime-change have been proven to be the clueless ones.That irrelevant rant aside - Don't say "the Kurds are allied with Assad now" as if they think that's a wonderful, "why didn't we think of this sooner" development.
This "Don't say . . " stuff is really childish.
paulsurovell said:
nohero said:
paulsurovell said:
People duped by the media, who deny Syria's sovereignty, who embrace Syrian regime-change have been proven to be the clueless ones.That irrelevant rant aside - Don't say "the Kurds are allied with Assad now" as if they think that's a wonderful, "why didn't we think of this sooner" development.
This "Don't say . . " stuff is really childish.
I was trying to be polite. I could have written, "Only an idiot would say that the Kurds 'allied' with Assad, who is letting them be brutalized."
The United States had encouraged its Kurdish allies to dismantle their defenses in northern Syria, saying it would make it easier to assure Turkey that the Kurds posed no threat. So in recent months, according to three American officials involved, the Kurds blew up tunnels and destroyed trenches, leaving themselves vulnerable as the United States promised that it would have their back.
Now, a week after President Trump’s decision to pull American support from them, the sense of betrayal among the Kurds, trusted allies now being forced to flee under assault from Turkey, is matched only by their outrage at who will move in: Turkish soldiers supported by Syrian fighters the United States had long rejected as extremists, criminals and thugs.
“These are the misfits of the conflict, the worst of the worst,” said Hassan Hassan, a Syrian-born scholar tracking the fighting. “They have been notorious for extortion, theft and banditry, more like thugs than rebels — essentially mercenaries.”
paulsurovell said:
What the Kurds and Assad have agreed to thus far:
https://twitter.com/Dannymakkisyria/status/1183685519764611072
Several of the 29 points thus far:
How's that working out for the Kurds?
"US officials tell me ALARM BELL RINGING among diplomats in DC that U.S. could one day be held responsible for Crimes Against Humanity for ethnic cleansing of Syrian Kurds by opening the door to it, watching it, encouraging it (Trump's tweets and statements) and not stopping it."
https://twitter.com/RichardEngel/status/1185501990555738113?s=20
nohero said:
paulsurovell said:
nohero said:
paulsurovell said:
People duped by the media, who deny Syria's sovereignty, who embrace Syrian regime-change have been proven to be the clueless ones.That irrelevant rant aside - Don't say "the Kurds are allied with Assad now" as if they think that's a wonderful, "why didn't we think of this sooner" development.
This "Don't say . . " stuff is really childish.
I was trying to be polite. I could have written, "Only an idiot would say that the Kurds 'allied' with Assad, who is letting them be brutalized."
The United States had encouraged its Kurdish allies to dismantle their defenses in northern Syria, saying it would make it easier to assure Turkey that the Kurds posed no threat. So in recent months, according to three American officials involved, the Kurds blew up tunnels and destroyed trenches, leaving themselves vulnerable as the United States promised that it would have their back.
Now, a week after President Trump’s decision to pull American support from them, the sense of betrayal among the Kurds, trusted allies now being forced to flee under assault from Turkey, is matched only by their outrage at who will move in: Turkish soldiers supported by Syrian fighters the United States had long rejected as extremists, criminals and thugs.
“These are the misfits of the conflict, the worst of the worst,” said Hassan Hassan, a Syrian-born scholar tracking the fighting. “They have been notorious for extortion, theft and banditry, more like thugs than rebels — essentially mercenaries.”
You did say that on Twitter. And I asked you if you thought this was fake news:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/13/world/middleeast/syria-turkey-invasion-isis.html
nohero said:
paulsurovell said:
What the Kurds and Assad have agreed to thus far:
https://twitter.com/Dannymakkisyria/status/1183685519764611072
Several of the 29 points thus far:
How's that working out for the Kurds?
"US officials tell me ALARM BELL RINGING among diplomats in DC that U.S. could one day be held responsible for Crimes Against Humanity for ethnic cleansing of Syrian Kurds by opening the door to it, watching it, encouraging it (Trump's tweets and statements) and not stopping it."
https://twitter.com/RichardEngel/status/1185501990555738113?s=20
Who has reported that ethnic cleansing is taking place? Engel hasn't.
This was written 5 days ago. Pretty close to what I've been saying:
In other words, once it became clear in 2018 that Trump was hostile to
the open-ended U.S. presence in Syria he inherited, the Kurds had
options to help ease the end of their relationship with the Americans.
But Trump’s State Department and Pentagon, unwilling to face up to a
final withdrawal—and the unequivocal loss of U.S. influence in a part of
the Middle East where it is increasingly impotent, if not
irrelevant—convinced the Kurds not to plan for an American departure.
Had the Kurds done so, their new Russian and Syrian partners might have
been able to spare them the devastation that Turkey is now wreaking as
the U.S. pulls back and stands by.
For Sale
-
2007 Honda Fit $4,400
More info -
REVO luggage $100
More info
Go on, keep trying to defend your glorious regime-change war before it completely unravels.