Tulsi Gabbard: Trump Stay Out of Venezuela

The EU, including the Socialist Government of Spain, but excluding Italy, has sided with Guaido.

https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-countries-recognize-juan-guaido-as-venezuelas-president-nicolas-maduro/

According to the BBC, Spanish Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez told reporters: “Given that we’ve got to today and Maduro’s regime hasn’t taken any steps whatsoever towards [calling elections], the government of Spain announces that it officially recognizes Mr. Guaidó, the president of the Venezuelan assembly, as Venezuela’s caretaker president.”

https://www.politico.eu/article/5star-league-italian-government-split-over-venezuela-crisis-alessandro-di-battista/

nohero said:
By the way, Tulsi has no problem siding with other despots who take power in a coup.  For example, she traveled to Egypt in 2015 with (now former) Rep. Dana Rohrabacher.  She has a press release and pictures about it.
https://gabbard.house.gov/news/press-releases/photos-rep-tulsi-gabbard-meets-egypt-president-el-sisi-and-other-leaders-cairo

“We had a lengthy, candid discussion with President el-Sisi about how important Egypt’s stability and success is for the region and for the world.  He would like to strengthen and restore U.S.-Egypt relations so that we may work together urgently to ‘decimate’ ISIS and other Islamic extremist groups who pose a threat to us and to the world,” said Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard.  “The recent attacks in Paris and Mali are just two examples of the devastation these groups have caused.  President el-Sisi has shown great courage and leadership in taking on this extreme Islamist ideology, while also fighting against ISIS militarily to keep them from gaining a foothold in Egypt.  The U.S. must take action to recognize President el-Sisi and his leadership, support Egypt’s progress and stability, and stand with him in this fight against ISIS, al-Qaeda, Boko Haram, and other Islamic extremists who are our common enemy.”

(Emphasis in original)

 Here's a picture of El Sisi with some other US politicians.

paulsurovell said:

nohero said:
By the way, Tulsi has no problem siding with other despots who take power in a coup.  For example, she traveled to Egypt in 2015 with (now former) Rep. Dana Rohrabacher.  She has a press release and pictures about it.
https://gabbard.house.gov/news/press-releases/photos-rep-tulsi-gabbard-meets-egypt-president-el-sisi-and-other-leaders-cairo

“We had a lengthy, candid discussion with President el-Sisi about how important Egypt’s stability and success is for the region and for the world.  He would like to strengthen and restore U.S.-Egypt relations so that we may work together urgently to ‘decimate’ ISIS and other Islamic extremist groups who pose a threat to us and to the world,” said Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard.  “The recent attacks in Paris and Mali are just two examples of the devastation these groups have caused.  President el-Sisi has shown great courage and leadership in taking on this extreme Islamist ideology, while also fighting against ISIS militarily to keep them from gaining a foothold in Egypt.  The U.S. must take action to recognize President el-Sisi and his leadership, support Egypt’s progress and stability, and stand with him in this fight against ISIS, al-Qaeda, Boko Haram, and other Islamic extremists who are our common enemy.”

(Emphasis in original)

 Here's a picture of El Sisi with some other US politicians.

 And your point (as if we didn't know)...didn't your Mommy teach you that 2 wrongs do NOT make a right?

Red card for Paul Surovell for illegal use of "what about ..." defense and, in his example, showing the Clintons who he has previously branded as warmongers.

LOST said:
The EU, including the Socialist Government of Spain, but excluding Italy, has sided with Guaido.
https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-countries-recognize-juan-guaido-as-venezuelas-president-nicolas-maduro/
According to the BBC, Spanish Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez told reporters: “Given that we’ve got to today and Maduro’s regime hasn’t taken any steps whatsoever towards [calling elections], the government of Spain announces that it officially recognizes Mr. Guaidó, the president of the Venezuelan assembly, as Venezuela’s caretaker president.”
https://www.politico.eu/article/5star-league-italian-government-split-over-venezuela-crisis-alessandro-di-battista/

Good for Italy.

Here's an interesting article on Spain's reaction to Guaido (they were informed of his "declaration" by the US before he made it)

It was not just about the legal issues that came up regarding Guaidó’s self-declared presidency, but also about breaking with traditional doctrine that says that diplomatic recognition is reserved for new states, not for new governments.

Mexico, Bolivia, Uruguay, Cuba, Antigua and Barbuda, Barbados, Belize, Dominica, Jamaica, Montserrat, St. Kitts and Nevis, Saint Lucia, St. Vincent and the Grenadines, Trinidad and Tobago; Grenada, Suriname and Guyana.

And of course there is the vast majority countries that haven't taken a stand, which leaves their recognition of the government of Venezuela in place.

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/world/americas/haiti/article225070430.html

https://caricom.org/communications/view/statement-by-the-conference-of-heads-of-government-of-caricom-on-the-latest-developments-in-the-situation-in-the-bolivarian-republic-of-venezuela#_ftnref1 

tjohn said:
Red card for Paul Surovell for illegal use of "what about ..." defense and, in his example, showing the Clintons who he has previously branded as warmongers.

 I don't think @nohero would agree with that characterization.

Dennis_Seelbach said:

paulsurovell said:

nohero said:
By the way, Tulsi has no problem siding with other despots who take power in a coup.  For example, she traveled to Egypt in 2015 with (now former) Rep. Dana Rohrabacher.  She has a press release and pictures about it.
https://gabbard.house.gov/news/press-releases/photos-rep-tulsi-gabbard-meets-egypt-president-el-sisi-and-other-leaders-cairo

“We had a lengthy, candid discussion with President el-Sisi about how important Egypt’s stability and success is for the region and for the world.  He would like to strengthen and restore U.S.-Egypt relations so that we may work together urgently to ‘decimate’ ISIS and other Islamic extremist groups who pose a threat to us and to the world,” said Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard.  “The recent attacks in Paris and Mali are just two examples of the devastation these groups have caused.  President el-Sisi has shown great courage and leadership in taking on this extreme Islamist ideology, while also fighting against ISIS militarily to keep them from gaining a foothold in Egypt.  The U.S. must take action to recognize President el-Sisi and his leadership, support Egypt’s progress and stability, and stand with him in this fight against ISIS, al-Qaeda, Boko Haram, and other Islamic extremists who are our common enemy.”

(Emphasis in original)

 Here's a picture of El Sisi with some other US politicians.

 And your point (as if we didn't know)...didn't your Mommy teach you that 2 wrongs do NOT make a right?

 It's not about two wrongs. It's about @nohero trying to tar Tulsi Gabbard for doing what hoardes of Democratic leaders have done. I mean if he prefaced his attack with "I know that Bill and Hillary have done this too, but . . . " the photo wouldn't have been necessary.

It's important to see things in perspective.

A simple Yes or No for those of you on the Trump-Bolton-Venezuela-Coup bandwagon:

Do you agree that Trump is meddling far more in Venezuela (even if he doesn't carry out his threat to use military force) than Putin is even alleged to have done in the US?

There's a thread on this question in the Sub-Forum, so no need to use the "R" word in your response here.

My mama told me to never give a simple Yes or No answer in complicated circumstances, especially if the question already put me on a coup bandwagon.

paulsurovell said:
A simple Yes or No for those of you on the Trump-Bolton-Venezuela-Coup bandwagon:
Do you agree that Trump is meddling far more in Venezuela (even if he doesn't carry out his threat to use military force) than Putin is even alleged to have done in the US?
There's a thread on this question in the Sub-Forum, so no need to use the "R" word in your response here.

 Of what possible use is this stupid question? And I would certainly question the "Trump-Bolton-Venezuela-Coup bandwagon" as having any members of this forum willing to hop on. 

This is a remarkable full-length documentary with inside footage from both the government and the opposition, prior to, during and after the US-supported military coup against Hugo Chavez in 2002.  The parallels with today are striking.

When I see a lot of independent international support for a position the U.S. is taking as well, I tend to believe that the motivations are generally concerns other than some cynical money grab by American corporations.  I do not believe that OAS and European countries are doing our bidding to try to please us.

The problem with Venezuela is that Maduro has so destroyed the Venezuelan economy that he has caused a humanitarian and refugee crisis.

The hope is that Trump doesn't make a mess of this situation with his usual heavy-handed blustering and threatening.

There is a difference between opposing US intervention in Venezuela and believing Maduro is a great guy. I don't know much about him. 

I do know that the fact that the US had no business invading Iraq does not mean that Saddam was not a monster.

LOST said:
There is a difference between opposing US intervention in Venezuela and believing Maduro is a great guy. I don't know much about him. 
I do know that the fact that the US had no business invading Iraq does not mean that Saddam was not a monster.

True.  There are lots of reason to be very careful and deliberate in our approach to Venezuela.  We should work closely with the OAS and Europe on this which we are not because Trump carries on like a drunk kid on steroids.  

Dennis_Seelbach said:

paulsurovell said:
A simple Yes or No for those of you on the Trump-Bolton-Venezuela-Coup bandwagon:
Do you agree that Trump is meddling far more in Venezuela (even if he doesn't carry out his threat to use military force) than Putin is even alleged to have done in the US?
There's a thread on this question in the Sub-Forum, so no need to use the "R" word in your response here.

 Of what possible use is this stupid question? And I would certainly question the "Trump-Bolton-Venezuela-Coup bandwagon" as having any members of this forum willing to hop on. 

 So you're telling me that you and all the others on this forum are opposed to the Trump-Bolton coup attempt in Venezuela?

paulsurovell said:

tjohn said:
Red card for Paul Surovell for illegal use of "what about ..." defense and, in his example, showing the Clintons who he has previously branded as warmongers.

 I don't think @nohero would agree with that characterization.

 Well, you were doing a "whataboutism" (more about that in later posts), and you have used the "warmonger" label against the Clintons.  So it's working against your interests if your argument is, "Tulsi's doing the same thing the Clinton's did".  

Actually, there's so much bull caca about your "whataboutism" that in addition to this post, I'll add a couple more.

paulsurovell said:

nohero said:
By the way, Tulsi has no problem siding with other despots who take power in a coup.  For example, she traveled to Egypt in 2015 with (now former) Rep. Dana Rohrabacher.  She has a press release and pictures about it.
https://gabbard.house.gov/news/press-releases/photos-rep-tulsi-gabbard-meets-egypt-president-el-sisi-and-other-leaders-cairo

“We had a lengthy, candid discussion with President el-Sisi about how important Egypt’s stability and success is for the region and for the world.  He would like to strengthen and restore U.S.-Egypt relations so that we may work together urgently to ‘decimate’ ISIS and other Islamic extremist groups who pose a threat to us and to the world,” said Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard.  “The recent attacks in Paris and Mali are just two examples of the devastation these groups have caused.  President el-Sisi has shown great courage and leadership in taking on this extreme Islamist ideology, while also fighting against ISIS militarily to keep them from gaining a foothold in Egypt.  The U.S. must take action to recognize President el-Sisi and his leadership, support Egypt’s progress and stability, and stand with him in this fight against ISIS, al-Qaeda, Boko Haram, and other Islamic extremists who are our common enemy.”

(Emphasis in original)

 Here's a picture of El Sisi with some other US politicians.

I guess you were hoping people ignored Tulsi's fulsome praise of el-Sisi, with your attempted diversion.  I guess you don't have any other response.  Too bad, considering all the praise you have for Tulsi.  I understand if you avoid it.

paulsurovell said:

nohero said:
By the way, Tulsi has no problem siding with other despots who take power in a coup.  For example, she traveled to Egypt in 2015 with (now former) Rep. Dana Rohrabacher.  She has a press release and pictures about it.
https://gabbard.house.gov/news/press-releases/photos-rep-tulsi-gabbard-meets-egypt-president-el-sisi-and-other-leaders-cairo

“We had a lengthy, candid discussion with President el-Sisi about how important Egypt’s stability and success is for the region and for the world.  He would like to strengthen and restore U.S.-Egypt relations so that we may work together urgently to ‘decimate’ ISIS and other Islamic extremist groups who pose a threat to us and to the world,” said Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard.  “The recent attacks in Paris and Mali are just two examples of the devastation these groups have caused.  President el-Sisi has shown great courage and leadership in taking on this extreme Islamist ideology, while also fighting against ISIS militarily to keep them from gaining a foothold in Egypt.  The U.S. must take action to recognize President el-Sisi and his leadership, support Egypt’s progress and stability, and stand with him in this fight against ISIS, al-Qaeda, Boko Haram, and other Islamic extremists who are our common enemy.”

(Emphasis in original)

 Here's a picture of El Sisi with some other US politicians.

 According to "The Google", that picture was taken on September 22, 2014 in New York.  See https://theintercept.com/2016/07/14/donald-trump-praises-dictators-but-hillary-clinton-befriends-them/

While Bill and Hillary are politicians, neither held any office at the time the picture was taken.

In contrast, sitting Representative Gabbard goes to Egypt to pose with (and praise) el-Sisi.  

There is no way those two situations are equivalent.  You're either uninformed or trying to make a deceptive argument.

paulsurovell said:

Dennis_Seelbach said:

paulsurovell said:

nohero said:
By the way, Tulsi has no problem siding with other despots who take power in a coup.  For example, she traveled to Egypt in 2015 with (now former) Rep. Dana Rohrabacher.  She has a press release and pictures about it.
https://gabbard.house.gov/news/press-releases/photos-rep-tulsi-gabbard-meets-egypt-president-el-sisi-and-other-leaders-cairo

“We had a lengthy, candid discussion with President el-Sisi about how important Egypt’s stability and success is for the region and for the world.  He would like to strengthen and restore U.S.-Egypt relations so that we may work together urgently to ‘decimate’ ISIS and other Islamic extremist groups who pose a threat to us and to the world,” said Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard.  “The recent attacks in Paris and Mali are just two examples of the devastation these groups have caused.  President el-Sisi has shown great courage and leadership in taking on this extreme Islamist ideology, while also fighting against ISIS militarily to keep them from gaining a foothold in Egypt.  The U.S. must take action to recognize President el-Sisi and his leadership, support Egypt’s progress and stability, and stand with him in this fight against ISIS, al-Qaeda, Boko Haram, and other Islamic extremists who are our common enemy.”

(Emphasis in original)

 Here's a picture of El Sisi with some other US politicians.

 And your point (as if we didn't know)...didn't your Mommy teach you that 2 wrongs do NOT make a right?

 It's not about two wrongs. It's about @nohero trying to tar Tulsi Gabbard for doing what hoardes of Democratic leaders have done. I mean if he prefaced his attack with "I know that Bill and Hillary have done this too, but . . . " the photo wouldn't have been necessary.

It's important to see things in perspective.

No, Mr. Surovell, your argument is bull caca.  Tulsi is the star of your thread, here, and so her specific statements in the past are relevant.  She praises and endorses the recognition of the leader of a military coup.  That's a simple fact.

And as we all know (@Dennis_Seelbach, join in with me) - FACTS MATTER.

paulsurovell said:

Dennis_Seelbach said:

paulsurovell said:
A simple Yes or No for those of you on the Trump-Bolton-Venezuela-Coup bandwagon:
Do you agree that Trump is meddling far more in Venezuela (even if he doesn't carry out his threat to use military force) than Putin is even alleged to have done in the US?
There's a thread on this question in the Sub-Forum, so no need to use the "R" word in your response here.

 Of what possible use is this stupid question? And I would certainly question the "Trump-Bolton-Venezuela-Coup bandwagon" as having any members of this forum willing to hop on. 

 So you're telling me that you and all the others on this forum are opposed to the Trump-Bolton coup attempt in Venezuela?

 That's a "when did you stop beating your wife" question.  There is a political dispute in Venezuela, not a "coup".  See my prior post about the legal niceties.

paulsurovell said:
A simple Yes or No for those of you on the Trump-Bolton-Venezuela-Coup bandwagon:
Do you agree that Trump is meddling far more in Venezuela (even if he doesn't carry out his threat to use military force) than Putin is even alleged to have done in the US?
There's a thread on this question in the Sub-Forum, so no need to use the "R" word in your response here.

 Congratulations, Mr. Surovell.  By deciding to combine this issue with Russian interference, you just made your own thread eligible for transfer to the "Russiagate" subforum.

@jamie, could you make it so, please?

tjohn said:

LOST said:
There is a difference between opposing US intervention in Venezuela and believing Maduro is a great guy. I don't know much about him. 
I do know that the fact that the US had no business invading Iraq does not mean that Saddam was not a monster.

True.  There are lots of reason to be very careful and deliberate in our approach to Venezuela.  We should work closely with the OAS and Europe on this which we are not because Trump carries on like a drunk kid on steroids.  

Unfortunately the "we" that you want to work with the OAS and Europe is the Trump-Bolton-Abrams-Pence-Rubio cabal. And they are working closely with the OAS and Europe. "Closely" meaning putting maximum pressure on them to agree to the most onerous measures against Venezuela, and if that doesn't work, to approve the military option that the Trump-Bolton cabal constantly reminds us is "on the table." 

Of course that could change if Pelosi or Schumer or even Hillary -- or even Bernie -- declares him or herself President and takes over the government. Why not?

If you watch the film "The Revolution Won't be Televised," you'll see how the opposition created a false provocation by firing on pro-Chavez demonstrators from rooftops and then showing video footage on pro-opposition television of the demonstrators firing back, claiming that the pro-Chavez demonstrators attacked the opposition (it's around 31:50 of the video). And important to recall that Abrams (Trump's point person on Venezuela) played a key role in the 2002 coup.

And if and when the provocation is launched, keep in mind the media's reporting of Kuwaiti incubator babies murdered by Saddam's forces, or the aluminum pipes or mushroom cloud stories, the Russian attack on the Vermont electric grid, etc., and ask yourself if maybe you are being manipulated.

nohero said:

paulsurovell said:
A simple Yes or No for those of you on the Trump-Bolton-Venezuela-Coup bandwagon:
Do you agree that Trump is meddling far more in Venezuela (even if he doesn't carry out his threat to use military force) than Putin is even alleged to have done in the US?
There's a thread on this question in the Sub-Forum, so no need to use the "R" word in your response here.

 Congratulations, Mr. Surovell.  By deciding to combine this issue with Russian interference, you just made your own thread eligible for transfer to the "Russiagate" subforum.
@jamie, could you make it so, please?

A duplicitous response by someone who doesn't want to answer a simple Yes or No question.

nohero said:

paulsurovell said:

Dennis_Seelbach said:

paulsurovell said:
A simple Yes or No for those of you on the Trump-Bolton-Venezuela-Coup bandwagon:
Do you agree that Trump is meddling far more in Venezuela (even if he doesn't carry out his threat to use military force) than Putin is even alleged to have done in the US?
There's a thread on this question in the Sub-Forum, so no need to use the "R" word in your response here.

 Of what possible use is this stupid question? And I would certainly question the "Trump-Bolton-Venezuela-Coup bandwagon" as having any members of this forum willing to hop on. 

 So you're telling me that you and all the others on this forum are opposed to the Trump-Bolton coup attempt in Venezuela?

 That's a "when did you stop beating your wife" question.  There is a political dispute in Venezuela, not a "coup".  See my prior post about the legal niceties.

 Are you against what Trump is doing?

nohero said:

No, Mr. Surovell, your argument is bull caca.  Tulsi is the star of your thread, here, and so her specific statements in the past are relevant.  She praises and endorses the recognition of the leader of a military coup.  That's a simple fact.
And as we all know (@Dennis_Seelbach, join in with me) - FACTS MATTER.

 Yeah, she does what Bill and Hillary and countless Democratic leaders do. But you tried to make it into something else.

paulsurovell said:

nohero said:

paulsurovell said:
A simple Yes or No for those of you on the Trump-Bolton-Venezuela-Coup bandwagon:
Do you agree that Trump is meddling far more in Venezuela (even if he doesn't carry out his threat to use military force) than Putin is even alleged to have done in the US?
There's a thread on this question in the Sub-Forum, so no need to use the "R" word in your response here.

 Congratulations, Mr. Surovell.  By deciding to combine this issue with Russian interference, you just made your own thread eligible for transfer to the "Russiagate" subforum.
@jamie, could you make it so, please?

A duplicitous response by someone who doesn't want to answer a simple Yes or No question.

 It's stating a fact.  And as others have noted, it's a ridiculous question on multiple levels, inviting people to say they are on the "coup" bandwagon", and asking for a simple answer on a comparison which, even if valid, needs a lot more discussion than the simpleton approach you're taking.

So, with all due respect, you can take your insult directed at me and insert it where the light from the star which the Earth circles does not reach.

nohero said: According to "The Google", that picture was taken on September 22, 2014 in New York.  See https://theintercept.com/2016/07/14/donald-trump-praises-dictators-but-hillary-clinton-befriends-them/
While Bill and Hillary are politicians, neither held any office at the time the picture was taken.
In contrast, sitting Representative Gabbard goes to Egypt to pose with (and praise) el-Sisi.  
There is no way those two situations are equivalent.  You're either uninformed or trying to make a deceptive argument.

 So we shouldn't pay any attention to what Bill and Hillary said after they left office?

paulsurovell said:

nohero said:

paulsurovell said:

Dennis_Seelbach said:

paulsurovell said:
A simple Yes or No for those of you on the Trump-Bolton-Venezuela-Coup bandwagon:
Do you agree that Trump is meddling far more in Venezuela (even if he doesn't carry out his threat to use military force) than Putin is even alleged to have done in the US?
There's a thread on this question in the Sub-Forum, so no need to use the "R" word in your response here.

 Of what possible use is this stupid question? And I would certainly question the "Trump-Bolton-Venezuela-Coup bandwagon" as having any members of this forum willing to hop on. 

 So you're telling me that you and all the others on this forum are opposed to the Trump-Bolton coup attempt in Venezuela?

 That's a "when did you stop beating your wife" question.  There is a political dispute in Venezuela, not a "coup".  See my prior post about the legal niceties.

 Are you against what Trump is doing?

 See my prior posts.

paulsurovell said:

nohero said: According to "The Google", that picture was taken on September 22, 2014 in New York.  See https://theintercept.com/2016/07/14/donald-trump-praises-dictators-but-hillary-clinton-befriends-them/
While Bill and Hillary are politicians, neither held any office at the time the picture was taken.
In contrast, sitting Representative Gabbard goes to Egypt to pose with (and praise) el-Sisi.  
There is no way those two situations are equivalent.  You're either uninformed or trying to make a deceptive argument.

 So we shouldn't pay any attention to what Bill and Hillary said after they left office?

 In other words, you're stumped again and "whatabouting".

paulsurovell said:

nohero said:

No, Mr. Surovell, your argument is bull caca.  Tulsi is the star of your thread, here, and so her specific statements in the past are relevant.  She praises and endorses the recognition of the leader of a military coup.  That's a simple fact.
And as we all know (@Dennis_Seelbach, join in with me) - FACTS MATTER.

 Yeah, she does what Bill and Hillary and countless Democratic leaders do. But you tried to make it into something else.

 Really?  How many gave that same level of praise and endorsement that she did?  Address that and stop trying to avoid the issue by insulting people or making more stupid comments.