The challenges ahead for Pope Francis, Catholics, and the Church worldwide
Mar 18, 2013 at 9:33am Edited
Forgive my ignorance...
Are there arrest warrants out for clergy that cannot be executed because the church has either given them sanctuary or moved them to places without extradition?
Are there arrest warrants out for clergy that cannot be executed because the church has either given them sanctuary or moved them to places without extradition?
Mar 18, 2013 at 11:18am Edited
ParticleMan said:
Forgive my ignorance...
Are there arrest warrants out for clergy that cannot be executed because the church has either given them sanctuary or moved them to places without extradition?
I was thinking more of individuals like Father Michael Kelly, a priest from my hometown. After allegations of criminal sexual misconduct were made to the Church against Kelly, the Church responded by sending him to the now notorious "counseling center" rather than handing him over to police. Once his "counseling" was completed, he was returned to his flock with no warning to the many parents with young children.
Kelly is now in Ireland where he fled after several jurisdictions in California opened criminal investigations into his activities last year.
There are conflicting reports about a possible confrontation between the new pope and a former archbishop of Boston.
The Vatican is now denying reports that Pope Francis ordered Bernard Cardinal Law to stay away from Saint Mary Major Basilica in Rome.
Law resigned as archbishop of Boston in 2002 during the height of the clergy sex abuse scandal. He was later named the archpriest of the Roman Basilica.
Saint Mary Major was one of the first churches visited by Pope Francis.
An earlier report on the website stpeterslist.com also said Pope Francis planned to send Cardinal Law to a monastery.
The Vatican is now denying reports that Pope Francis ordered Bernard Cardinal Law to stay away from Saint Mary Major Basilica in Rome.
Law resigned as archbishop of Boston in 2002 during the height of the clergy sex abuse scandal. He was later named the archpriest of the Roman Basilica.
Saint Mary Major was one of the first churches visited by Pope Francis.
An earlier report on the website stpeterslist.com also said Pope Francis planned to send Cardinal Law to a monastery.
So, the rest of the world suffers from moral relativism, which is wrecking the ethical fiber of the universe, and gay people trying to adopt is the height of abuse to unfortunate children who have no parents. In addition, Europe is being ruined for the faithful by an influx of poor Muslim immigrants, forcing the church to grow in third-world locales. Yet the Catholic church's "secure objective foundation for morality" allows priests to bugger young boys at will.
Check.
That sound you just heard was my head exploding from all the moral relativism that has blighted my existence.
Check.
That sound you just heard was my head exploding from all the moral relativism that has blighted my existence.
http://www.slate.com/articles/life/faithbased/2013/03/why_didn_t_pope_francis_choose_a_jesuit_name.html
The above is from another thread, but I think it's worth a repeat here.
The above is from another thread, but I think it's worth a repeat here.
Let's get something straight here: I have respect and admiration for this new pope. He sounds like a stand-up guy, a man with great intentions and real caring for the poor and downtrodden. But that, frankly, does nothing (NOTHING) to eradicate the shambles of the Church's current standing in the public view. They have got a long way to go, and I think Pope Francis has inherited one hell of a challenge. I hope he is up to it. I really hope they do something about this mess. But I don't have a lot of hope, given how they have been dealing with it over the past couple of decades.
PeggyC said:
They have got a long way to go, and I think Pope Francis has inherited one hell of a challenge. I hope he is up to it. I really hope they do something about this mess. But I don't have a lot of hope, given how they have been dealing with it over the past couple of decades.
I would love to see this Pope order every rapist priest to either sign a confession and surrender to the authorities or resign from the Priesthood but I don't hold much hope. Short of that, I don't see that there is much that can be done to to begin the Church's penance for its monstrous on going sins.
metaphysician said:
An earlier report on the website stpeterslist.com also said Pope Francis planned to send Cardinal Law to a monastery.
I went to stpeterslist.com and typed in my location, and while I found a few Jobs, LOTS of Services and items in the For Sale section, the Personals section seemed to be a little lacking.
Well, all except the Strictly Platonic page. That was rocking.
Not so much standup and caring for victims of abuse.PeggyC said:
Let's get something straight here: I have respect and admiration for this new pope. He sounds like a stand-up guy, a man with great intentions and real caring for the poor and downtrodden.
Pope Francis was often quiet on Argentine sex abuse cases as archbishop
Grassi is a convicted sex offender who remains free on a conditional release after being sentenced to 15 years in prison in 2009 for molesting a prepubescent boy in his care.
Yet in the years after Grassi’s conviction, Bergoglio — now Pope Francis — has declined to meet with the victim of the priest’s crimes or the victims of other predations by clergy under his leadership. He did not offer personal apologies or financial restitution, even in cases in which the crimes were denounced by other members of the church and the offending priests were sent to jail.
. . .
But during most of the 14 years that Bergoglio served as archbishop of Buenos Aires, rights advocates say, he did not take decisive action to protect children or act swiftly when molestation charges surfaced; nor did he extend apologies to the victims of abusive priests after their misconduct came to light.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/pope-francis-was-often-quiet-on-argentine-sex-abuse-cases-as-archbishop/2013/03/18/26
Geez, the guy hasn't been pope for a month. We also do not know yet what he is planning and doing behind the scenes. He did make a statement about how the culture of the administration should change to be servants of its people instead of masters. How about we give him a chance to steer the ship. To continue on with the ocean liner metaphor so uh, lovingly put forth here, an organization that big cannot turn on a dime.
bikefixed said:
Geez, the guy hasn't been pope for a month. We also do not know yet what he is planning and doing behind the scenes. He did make a statement about how the culture of the administration should change to be servants of its people instead of masters. How about we give him a chance to steer the ship. To continue on with the ocean liner metaphor so uh, lovingly put forth here, an organization that big cannot turn on a dime.
Yeah, but the guy has been steering other, smaller ships for years. The fact that he spent much of that time ignoring the pleas of those in the lifeboats is certainly relevant to the current conversation (not to mention those leftist priests that he forced to walk the plank).
Carnival Cruise lines is in serious trouble. The decks are awash with poo and the question is whether the new captain will steer the ship onto the reef or into the port.
Blessing dogs and his humble actions are lovely gestures but he needs to come out against the atrocities of the church in a big way and fairly quickly. The problem with the church wasn't that the Pope wasn't humble or down to earth. The problem was that it allowed the molestation of children to happen repeatedly under its roof and it did nothing to clean house. This is exactly like the Penn State mess- we were all outraged that coaches didn't report the abuse. We should be even more outraged here.
When he was a cardinal, he didn't have the final authority. He does now, but even that is limited by the curia. Just like any head of state or corporation or even a local organization, one has to not only change the sentiment of the rank and file but change their actions. Policy is one thing. Putting in motion is another.
I'm giving him a chance and holding off on the wailing for a while.
I'm giving him a chance and holding off on the wailing for a while.
Agreed but, IMO, he has about 30 days to do something, say something, begin to take action. Certainly, the action can be longer but he needs to come out and say it was an atrocity and he is working on a plan to bring the pedophiles to justice and oust them from the church and he needs to do it quickly.
Mar 19, 2013 at 6:06am Edited
Bishops and Cardinals have a lot of authority. They can disregard the Curia, as some have done and are doing. They report directly to the Pope and the Pope is the only one they are mandated to obey because of their vow of obedience to the Pope.bikefixed said:
When he was a cardinal, he didn't have the final authority. He does now, but even that is limited by the curia.
Which is why we see highly divergent rules applied based on the diocese of a bishop. In some dioceses, pro-abortion politicians are not allowed communion and a few dioceses consider those politicians to be automatically excommunicated.
I didn't realize the "final" authority mandated that he NOT apologize or mandated he not offer restitution to the victims of his pedophiles. That choice was his.
Get a clue, BG9. Consider the world outside the U.S. as well. Totally different playing field in Argentina. Your axe is sharp enough for now, isn't it? Keeping up pressure and expectations is one thing but be reasonable and give him a chance now that he is pope (what I meant by having final authority over the church).
Contrast Francis' approach to the Military Junta in Argentina with the Church's response to military dictatorships in other Latin American countries. It is clear that the Church gave a great deal of leeway to local officials in dealing with the murderous barbarians that controlled these countries.
Yeah, L.P., the clergy was split into 3 groups in Argentina. Those that protested the dirty war = dead/disappeared. Those that enabled the dirty war = now jailed/punished. Those who remained silent = hard to say. What is known is that Francis did work behind the scenes to protect some clergy that opposed the regime.
Oh, OK. Its Argentina. So, ignoring pedophilia is OK. Different playing field, play, play play. Thank you for enlightening us.bikefixed said:
Get a clue, BG9. Consider the world outside the U.S. as well. Totally different playing field in Argentina.
Maybe the victims and their parents should apologize to the priests. After all, it is Argentina, you know, different playing field. How is it different? Kids fault for tempting the priests? Others in Argentina did apologize and gave recompense.
None of us are free of sin. Are we then never to accuse matter the crime? Simply leave it to the hereafter to judge?pamplemousse said:
Let him without sin....
Of course, BG9, we accuse. But we are careful not to commit the crime of assigning guilt by association. I think this new Pope sounds great, and I've never been Catholic, or anything near it. I think we have to give him a chance. You don't jump in with both feet if you're planning to make any serious difference in this world. (MOLers helped teach me that.)
pamplemousse said:
Let him without sin....
I don't really understand this line. If we truly took it to heart, we would not be able to punish any wrongdoers.
And yes, I know the context. From my understanding, it's more a call for mercy than against a rush to judgement.
.... Simply leave it to the hereafter to judge?pamplemousse said:
Let him without sin....
That's the kicker in all of this. If those *****s in their collars and cassocks really believed there was a "hereafter," would they have behaved as they did?
ParticleMan said:
pamplemousse said:
Let him without sin....
I don't really understand this line. If we truly took it to heart, we would not be able to punish any wrongdoers.
And yes, I know the context. From my understanding, it's more a call for mercy than against a rush to judgement.
Either way, it doesn't hurt to follow its wisdom.
When so much anger and self-righteousness is expressed toward the Catholic Church, my guess is that the cause is often the 8000 lb elephant in the living room, not the obvious topic on the table (or thread in this case).
Using the position that there can be no redemption for sinners, will the world be a better place? Will the angry really find inner peace?
I would like to give Pope Francis the opportunity to do the job he was elected to do. All we have to do is pray for his success.
Using the position that there can be no redemption for sinners, will the world be a better place? Will the angry really find inner peace?
I would like to give Pope Francis the opportunity to do the job he was elected to do. All we have to do is pray for his success.
Comments of a Rabbi at the Vatican today:
From the moment he walked onto the balcony overlooking St. Peter’s Square last week, Pope Francis has been doing things that herald great promise not only for Catholics, but for the work of inter-religious relations in particular, and for the role of faith in the world as whole.
Two moments in particular, stand out at examples of why this rabbi is quickly coming to see that Pope Francis could be considered a religious teacher and guide not only for Catholics, but for all people, whatever faith they follow.
In his first public appearance, Pope Francis invited the masses gathered at the Vatican – many of whom gathered not only to see the new Bishop of Rome, but to receive his blessing – to bless him before he blessed them! Standing before those he leads, the Pope assured them that those seeking blessing, are themselves capable of conferring blessing on others, and that however elevated his status, he needed their prayers.
Pope Francis reminded people that authentic prayer and blessing are not the purview of any one person or office holder, that we all have it within us to share these gifts.
Pope Francis reminded people that authentic prayer and blessing are not the purview of any one person or office holder, that we all have it within us to share these gifts, and that no matter how spiritually adept or religiously important one may be, we all stand in need of each others’ prayers and blessings.
That view, extended to all those in the crowd, especially knowing that by no means were all those gathered there Catholic, promises a new era in relations between those who follow different faiths.
The New Pope invited people to experience a world in which people, no matter how deeply committed to a particular tradition, acknowledged that real spiritual gifts and power are to found among those who follow other faiths.
He modeled a world in which religious leaders appreciated that they needed the prayers of others in order to assume their roles as leaders. That is a world in which we move from religious folks simply celebrating those things about which they already agree, and negotiating greater civility among different religions – too often the substance of what passes for inter-religious encounter -- to nurturing genuine relationships which celebrate the unique contributions that each tradition and each follower offers the others. A new world indeed.
Any doubt about the path being marked by Pope Francis in this regard, was removed on Saturday when he met the press corps that had gathered in Rome for the previous week.
In what would be the Pontiff’s final meeting, at least for now, with such a large and diverse group, his comments sent a clear and powerful message. Again, one from which all people, religious or not, could learn.
“Given that many of you do not belong to the Catholic Church, and others are not believers, I give this blessing from my heart, in silence, to each one of you, respecting the conscience of each one of you, but knowing that each one of you is a child of God,” Pope Francis said. “May God bless you.”
With a few brief sentences, the pope shattered and false and often dangerous dichotomy between fidelity to the faith one follows, and respecting the human dignity inherent in all people, no matter what their chosen faith path may be, including the path of no faith at all.
This was about honoring human conscience and embracing the limits of any particular religious language, no matter how much we may love it.
This was about, in my tradition at least, reclaiming the Genesis story in which the first humans had no particular religion, and attention is drawn to the fact that no matter what, all are created in the image of God.
People can debate the God part forever, but that is not the point. The point is to draw on whatever one understands to be the source of all that is best in the world, and acknowledge that it is embodied not only by those who share your path, but also by those who do not. Bless Pope Francis for reminding us anew of that very ancient truth.
Rabbi Brad Hirschfield is the author of "You Don’t Have to Be Wrong for Me to Be Right: Finding Faith Without Fanaticism," and president of Clal-The National Jewish Center for Learning and Leadership.
From the moment he walked onto the balcony overlooking St. Peter’s Square last week, Pope Francis has been doing things that herald great promise not only for Catholics, but for the work of inter-religious relations in particular, and for the role of faith in the world as whole.
Two moments in particular, stand out at examples of why this rabbi is quickly coming to see that Pope Francis could be considered a religious teacher and guide not only for Catholics, but for all people, whatever faith they follow.
In his first public appearance, Pope Francis invited the masses gathered at the Vatican – many of whom gathered not only to see the new Bishop of Rome, but to receive his blessing – to bless him before he blessed them! Standing before those he leads, the Pope assured them that those seeking blessing, are themselves capable of conferring blessing on others, and that however elevated his status, he needed their prayers.
Pope Francis reminded people that authentic prayer and blessing are not the purview of any one person or office holder, that we all have it within us to share these gifts.
Pope Francis reminded people that authentic prayer and blessing are not the purview of any one person or office holder, that we all have it within us to share these gifts, and that no matter how spiritually adept or religiously important one may be, we all stand in need of each others’ prayers and blessings.
That view, extended to all those in the crowd, especially knowing that by no means were all those gathered there Catholic, promises a new era in relations between those who follow different faiths.
The New Pope invited people to experience a world in which people, no matter how deeply committed to a particular tradition, acknowledged that real spiritual gifts and power are to found among those who follow other faiths.
He modeled a world in which religious leaders appreciated that they needed the prayers of others in order to assume their roles as leaders. That is a world in which we move from religious folks simply celebrating those things about which they already agree, and negotiating greater civility among different religions – too often the substance of what passes for inter-religious encounter -- to nurturing genuine relationships which celebrate the unique contributions that each tradition and each follower offers the others. A new world indeed.
Any doubt about the path being marked by Pope Francis in this regard, was removed on Saturday when he met the press corps that had gathered in Rome for the previous week.
In what would be the Pontiff’s final meeting, at least for now, with such a large and diverse group, his comments sent a clear and powerful message. Again, one from which all people, religious or not, could learn.
“Given that many of you do not belong to the Catholic Church, and others are not believers, I give this blessing from my heart, in silence, to each one of you, respecting the conscience of each one of you, but knowing that each one of you is a child of God,” Pope Francis said. “May God bless you.”
With a few brief sentences, the pope shattered and false and often dangerous dichotomy between fidelity to the faith one follows, and respecting the human dignity inherent in all people, no matter what their chosen faith path may be, including the path of no faith at all.
This was about honoring human conscience and embracing the limits of any particular religious language, no matter how much we may love it.
This was about, in my tradition at least, reclaiming the Genesis story in which the first humans had no particular religion, and attention is drawn to the fact that no matter what, all are created in the image of God.
People can debate the God part forever, but that is not the point. The point is to draw on whatever one understands to be the source of all that is best in the world, and acknowledge that it is embodied not only by those who share your path, but also by those who do not. Bless Pope Francis for reminding us anew of that very ancient truth.
Rabbi Brad Hirschfield is the author of "You Don’t Have to Be Wrong for Me to Be Right: Finding Faith Without Fanaticism," and president of Clal-The National Jewish Center for Learning and Leadership.
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