drummerboy said:

Have you noticed that countries with national health care are also suffering in this pandemic?

How could M4A possibly make a difference in these conditions?

 Ah, let's see?  How about covering everyone and not causing anyone to go broke?  How would you like to face coronavirus without insurance?  There was a 17 year old boy who died because he had not insurance and was refused treatment.  

Uninsured Americans could be facing nearly $75,000 in medical bills if hospitalized for coronavirus

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/01/covid-19-hospital-bills-could-cost-uninsured-americans-up-to-75000.html

nan said:

 Ah, let's see?  How about covering everyone and not causing anyone to go broke?  How would you like to face coronavirus without insurance?  There was a 17 year old boy who died because he had not insurance and was refused treatment.  

Uninsured Americans could be facing nearly $75,000 in medical bills if hospitalized for coronavirus

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/01/covid-19-hospital-bills-could-cost-uninsured-americans-up-to-75000.html

 bad answer. try again.

I guarantee you that no country's plan for fighting a pandemic includes universal health insurance as a primary tool. Or secondary. Or...

drummerboy said:

Have you noticed that countries with national health care are also suffering in this pandemic?

How could M4A possibly make a difference in these conditions?

Nobody said M4A would prevent suffering in pandemics.

Is it possible other countries are suffering less, though, than they would have if they had our health system? Did their people, for instance, go into the crisis healthier than ours? Were they more confident in the system, and therefore more willing to follow health advisories about the virus? Did they seek care more quickly, rather than weigh the costs of co-pays or promises that costs would be waived? Was there a more coordinated distribution of resources?

“How could M4A possibly make a difference in these conditions?” Off the top of my head, those would be a few of the paths I’d follow to answer that question, if you haven’t ruled them out already.

drummerboy said:

 bad answer. try again.

I guarantee you that no country's plan for fighting a pandemic includes universal health insurance as a primary tool. Or secondary. Or...

Of course they don't since we are the only one's left who don't already have that.  Friggin stupid people here think it's a "far left" idea.  Everyone else takes it for granted.  Meanwhile we pay more than everyone else and have worse outcomes. 

But, if you don't cover everyone than it makes it much harder to contain the pandemic.  You have people who are afraid to go to a doctor/hospital because of bills continuing to circulate and spread more germs. 

The Coronavirus Shows It is Time to Remove the For-Profit Infection from U.S. Health Care

We have allowed the profit motive to drive our U.S. health care system, and it has driven us straight into a ditch.

https://www.commondreams.org/views/2020/03/16/coronavirus-shows-it-time-remove-profit-infection-us-health-care

nan said:

nohero said:

Jimmy Dore losing his sh*t going off on Bernie.

Bernie created this madness. Now it is out of control.

These people want a revolution in the middle of a pandemic and people dying. pic.twitter.com/Wa2eBXgtHK

— Kamala’s Stilleto (@JuneSummer1) April 3, 2020

I would think you would like that.  

Yes, it's my favorite Jimmy Dore video evah. 

"It's time for a fcukin' revolution, which starts with a STRIKE!  A rent strike, a mortgage strike, the student loan strike, a credit card strike!"

I'd call Jimmy Dore a cartoon character, except he's not amusing at all.

Correction, I found my new favorite Jimmy Dore Video.

It should come with a warning -"Scary Glimpse into Jimmy's Id".

DaveSchmidt said:

drummerboy said:

Have you noticed that countries with national health care are also suffering in this pandemic?

How could M4A possibly make a difference in these conditions?

Nobody said M4A would prevent suffering in pandemics.

Is it possible other countries are suffering less, though, than they would have if they had our health system? Did their people, for instance, go into the crisis healthier than ours? Were they more confident in the system, and therefore more willing to follow health advisories about the virus? Did they seek care more quickly, rather than weigh the costs of co-pays or promises that costs would be waived? Was there a more coordinated distribution of resources?

“How could M4A possibly make a difference in these conditions?” Off the top of my head, those would be a few of the paths I’d follow to answer that question, if you haven’t ruled them out already.

I don't think I claimed that "M4A would prevent suffering in pandemics.". But the very obvious implication of "M4A now because pandemic" is that it would have some kind of good effect on the pandemic's path. What or how exactly has never been explained.

Your other points, I would guess, produce practically immeasurable effects. Even assuming they were quantifiable in the first place.

drummerboy said:

I don't think I claimed that "M4A would prevent suffering in pandemics.". But the very obvious implication of "M4A now because pandemic" is that it would have some kind of good effect on the pandemic's path. What or how exactly has never been explained.

Your other points, I would guess, produce practically immeasurable effects. Even assuming they were quantifiable in the first place.

You asked a question. You guess some possible answers are insignificant (how many lives constitute a “measure”?), or too difficult to quantify. If that makes you think your question remains a checkmate — it wouldn’t surprise me.

nohero said:

Yes, it's my favorite Jimmy Dore video evah. 

 You can thank me at any time for introducing you to Jimmy Dore and helping to expand your stubborn mind a bit. He does not always make me comfortable but I appreciate hearing his views and they are a great contrast to the bland propaganda on MSM. 

sbenois said:

Jimmy is starting to recognize that his time has passed.  

He had a time?

nohero said:

"It's time for a fcukin' revolution, which starts with a STRIKE!  A rent strike, a mortgage strike, the student loan strike, a credit card strike!"

I'd call Jimmy Dore a cartoon character, except he's not amusing at all.

 OTOH:

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/z3b9ny/coronavirus-general-strike

nan said:

There was a 17 year old boy who died because he had not insurance and was refused treatment.  

It turns out there wasn’t. Last Sunday, the California mayor who spread the word about the case posted this update on his Facebook page:

William, the 17-year-old boy, is the only person to die in the Antelope Valley from COVID 19, so far. We have learned more information about William’s death. His family did have health insurance. When the family called his HMO, they were (correctly) told to take him to the emergency room. There was some initial confusion, possibly from language difficulties about the status of health insurance, but the family always had insurance. His family did everything possible to protect William, but this disease is fast and deadly.

Here’s an article from Time about that update:

You Probably Read About an Uninsured Teen Who Died of COVID-19. The Truth Is More Complicated

Lastly, the young man’s death has been removed from the coronavirus tally for now, pending further investigation. He tested positive for the virus, but that may not be what killed him.

DaveSchmidt said:

The Truth Is More Complicated

Annoying how often that's the case. Makes it so much harder to swing those ideological bludgeons.

PVW said:

Annoying how often that's the case. Makes it so much harder to swing those ideological bludgeons.

But does it, really? 

DaveSchmidt said:

PVW said:

Annoying how often that's the case. Makes it so much harder to swing those ideological bludgeons.

But does it, really? 

 I suppose if you're using a bludgeon in the first place you're not too particular about what you hit, so perhaps you're right.

nohero said:

"It's time for a fcukin' revolution, which starts with a STRIKE!  A rent strike, a mortgage strike, the student loan strike, a credit card strike!"

I'd call Jimmy Dore a cartoon character, except he's not amusing at all.

 Well, what are people supposed to do when they have no money for food, rent or health insurance.  This question was asked of Joe Biden and his answer was "The tests should be free" ignoring the other problems.  So, when that's what you are being offered for the best case scenario for the 2020 election, than revolution just might cross your mind.  Why does this come as some esoteric surprise to you?  WTF should people do?  They rallied around Joe to stop Bernie.  It's clear that the needs of ordinary people are of zero importance to the Democrats. 

nan said:

 Well, what are people supposed to do when they have no money for food, rent or health insurance.  This question was asked of Joe Biden and his answer was "The tests should be free" ignoring the other problems.  So, when that's what you are being offered for the best case scenario for the 2020 election, than revolution just might cross your mind.  Why does this come as some esoteric surprise to you?  WTF should people do?  They rallied around Joe to stop Bernie.  It's clear that the needs of ordinary people are of zero importance to the Democrats. 

 I thought Bernie wanted to lead a Revolution. Now you're saying his nomination and election are needed to prevent a revolution.

nan said:

nohero said:

"It's time for a fcukin' revolution, which starts with a STRIKE!  A rent strike, a mortgage strike, the student loan strike, a credit card strike!"

I'd call Jimmy Dore a cartoon character, except he's not amusing at all.

 Well, what are people supposed to do when they have no money for food, rent or health insurance.  This question was asked of Joe Biden and his answer was "The tests should be free" ignoring the other problems.  So, when that's what you are being offered for the best case scenario for the 2020 election, than revolution just might cross your mind.  Why does this come as some esoteric surprise to you?  WTF should people do?  They rallied around Joe to stop Bernie.  It's clear that the needs of ordinary people are of zero importance to the Democrats. 

of course they're of zero importance. That's why the Dems insisted on the biggest expansion of unemployment insurance in history.

But other than that, you're right. You're always right, up til we consider the facts.

STANV said:

 I thought Bernie wanted to lead a Revolution. Now you're saying his nomination and election are needed to prevent a revolution.

 Bernie was leading a peaceful revolution.  Now there will be a not-so-peaceful revolution.  You had your chance. 

https://twitter.com/jvgraz/status/1235605069942460417

drummerboy said:

of course they're of zero importance. That's why the Dems insisted on the biggest expansion of unemployment insurance in history.

But other than that, you're right. You're always right, up til we consider the facts.

Did you hear Biden's answer?   Not what I expect from someone who wants to be elected President.  

That unemployment insurance is not going to cover food, rent AND healthcare for many.  And where is it already?  Rent/mortgages were due April 1.  The $1200 might not come for months.  And it won't cover everyone.  It won't cover graduating college students who can't get jobs in this economy and still need to pay back student loans. 

Where is it already?  Why don't you go ask the President who you ENABLED by your stupidity four years ago?   Go ask Jill Stein and her voters where the money is.  Not us.

nan said:

drummerboy said:

of course they're of zero importance. That's why the Dems insisted on the biggest expansion of unemployment insurance in history.

But other than that, you're right. You're always right, up til we consider the facts.

Did you hear Biden's answer?   Not what I expect from someone who wants to be elected President.  

That unemployment insurance is not going to cover food, rent AND healthcare for many.  And where is it already?  Rent/mortgages were due April 1.  The $1200 might not come for months.  And it won't cover everyone.  It won't cover graduating college students who can't get jobs in this economy and still need to pay back student loans. 

The unemployment insurance will essentially cover a person's entire salary. (sometimes more, apparently),. If they could pay for stuff before, they can still pay for stuff.

It sounds like you have no idea of what went into that bill.

The $1200 payment is largely useless. The UI is what's important.

sbenois said:

Where is it already?  Why don't you go ask the President who you ENABLED by your stupidity four years ago?   Go ask Jill Stein and her voters where the money is.  Not us.

 As long as you keep blaming voters for the corruption of the Democratic party, we will continue having people like Donald Trump in power and they will only get worse. The next one might well be more like Bolsonaro, with whom we are currently friendly.  The MSM is already putting things in place to blame Bernie and his supporters for the next loss.  I did not cause the last failure and I have repeatedly warned you about what will happen if you nominate Joe Biden.  I cannot stop you from electing Trump.  I can only watch with horror as the out of control train plunges down the tracks. 

It's becoming obvious that the Democratic party needs to be burned to the ground. 

nan said:

drummerboy said:

of course they're of zero importance. That's why the Dems insisted on the biggest expansion of unemployment insurance in history.

But other than that, you're right. You're always right, up til we consider the facts.

Did you hear Biden's answer?   ...

Ms. Nan, you are the one who did not hear Biden's answer.  The short clip of the answer stops before the end.  Biden was talking about immediate help - because he actually listened to the point of the question, and then addressed it.  That's something done by people with their wits about them.

The typical Bernie answer would have involved his usual rhetorical questions ("How can it be that …", "Why do we in this country …") and then telling us what should be passed into law and in effect some years in the future.  That's how he responded in the last one-on-one debate with Biden, while Biden addressed the questions and the immediate needs.

Which debate performance caused poor Jimmy Dore to have a melt-down.

That short clip is from the one-hour CNN Town Hall, which I told you about before it took place, and gave a link to after it took place.  Instead of watching the actual long interview, you're relying on a deliberately-deceptive snippet from some vidiot who does NOT have the intent of giving an honest representation.

In other words, Biden's response to the short and long term needs was contained in the entire CNN town hall.  Any argument based on that snippet, isn't valid, and people shouldn't be berated for not relying just on that.

nohero said:

Ms. Nan, you are the one who did not hear Biden's answer.  The short clip of the answer stops before the end.  Biden was talking about immediate help - because he actually listened to the point of the question, and then addressed it.  That's something done by people with their wits about them.

The typical Bernie answer would have involved his usual rhetorical questions ("How can it be that …", "Why do we in this country …") and then telling us what should be passed into law and in effect some years in the future.  That's how he responded in the last one-on-one debate with Biden, while Biden addressed the questions and the immediate needs.

Which debate performance caused poor Jimmy Dore to have a melt-down.

That short clip is from the one-hour CNN Town Hall, which I told you about before it took place, and gave a link to after it took place.  Instead of watching the actual long interview, you're relying on a deliberately-deceptive snippet from some vidiot who does NOT have the intent of giving an honest representation.

In other words, Biden's response to the short and long term needs was contained in the entire CNN town hall.  Any argument based on that snippet, isn't valid, and people shouldn't be berated for not relying just on that.

Well what did he say to those people that would help them?  How is the ACA which is not free going to solve their huge problem. You don't say.  You just say I did not hear his answer.  That's very telling. 

If he had such a great response, let's hear it.  

nan said:

Well what did he say to those people that would help them?  How is the ACA which is not free going to solve their huge problem. You don't say.  You just say I did not hear his answer.  That's very telling. 

If he had such a great response, let's hear it.  

 You watched a snippet posted by someone, instead of the whole interview. I'm not going to transcribe the hour of Biden discussing short and long term measures. If you're interested, it's on CNN on the internet. 

nan said:

STANV said:

 I thought Bernie wanted to lead a Revolution. Now you're saying his nomination and election are needed to prevent a revolution.

 Bernie was leading a peaceful revolution.  Now there will be a not-so-peaceful revolution.  You had your chance. 

I had my chance in 1968 and I took it. Others, including an acquaintance, chose violence. One of them, Maplewood native son Mark Rudd, had an Op-Ed in the NY Times some weeks back renouncing violence and explaining why it is not a solution. 

nohero said:

 You watched a snippet posted by someone, instead of the whole interview. I'm not going to transcribe the hour of Biden discussing short and long term measures. If you're interested, it's on CNN on the internet. 

 I went on Biden's website.  There were no solutions.  Biden favors the ACA and maybe a public option.  If he's suggesting something else let me know.  Even Biden's wife, Jill, made an ad where she said Biden probably did not have exiting policies, but you should vote for him based on his supposed ability to beat Trump. 

So, if you think Biden has an exciting policy that is going to save families in dire situations without healthcare than you should be promoting them online, not telling me to go watch an hour long show to try to find what I know if not there. 

You are only making it even more obvious that Biden is going to be a disaster in November. 

STANV said:

I had my chance in 1968 and I took it. Others, including an acquaintance, chose violence. One of them, Maplewood native son Mark Rudd, had an Op-Ed in the NY Times some weeks back renouncing violence and explaining why it is not a solution. 

 Jimmy Dore is not necessarily talking about a violent revolution, although it will not doubt end up that way.  He's talking about workers striking and protesting and shutting down essential business and go on rent, mortgage, etc. strikes.  These protests will be peaceful, but the response will not doubt be harsh since we have many elements of a surveillance/police state already in place. 

I just watched another Jimmy Dore video where he really goes full rage on Bernie for trying to work within the system.  I can understand how he feels, because although Bernie was very nice and polite and respectful of Nancy Pelosi and Obama and calls Joe Biden "His friend" and says he can beat Trump, he is smeared horribly as the opposite. He should have been going after all of those people and it's not like his decency is appreciated in the media or DNC.  

You see this untrue and unfair portrayal of Bernie on MOL all the time.  He is said to be "angry" and dishonest and a a maniac and an extreme radical and a Communist and so on.  Meanwhile, Sanders never even said a negative word about Warren in response to her political hitjob,  went along fine with the whole Russiagate hoax and only talked about the issues.  Yet, he was excoriated for just saying the factual truth about Cuba's education system. He was truly a positive figure who wanted to inspire people to come together to peacefully fight for a better deal for ordinary people and the planet.  His major policies, M4A and GND are not crazy or extreme in any way.  Yet, the entire Democratic establishment was willing to rally around Joe Biden just to stop him, knowing that it would probably lead to the re-election of Trump. So, trying to run an honest, decent campaign gets you crap and both Jeremy Corbyn and Bernie Sanders demonstrate that. 

Jimmy's guest on the video, Danny Haiphong, who is much calmer than Jimmy, makes the  important point, that power concedes nothing without a demand.  He says that the big mistake made by Bernie's campaign and other progressives is that the Democratic Party just went astray from their Working Class roots and needed to go ajusted back (I have thought that).  But that history is incorrect.  The New Deal was not enacted because FDR was a nice guy.  It was enacted because there were thousands and thousands of strikes happening and workers' actions everywhere and plants were being shut down.  So FDR had to enact those reforms to save capitalism because capitalism is going to fall apart and people may look to other countries and see socialism and we can't have that here. And that's how the New Deal was enacted.  So it's backwards to think that electing a Democrat will give you the conditions you need to enact change. You can't run in a party that is hostile to you.