Rock and Roll Hall of Fame (Yeah, That Again)

Look at this GD MF'n lineup. I'm still amazed by it. (Not trying to argue about it. Just sayin )

bettyd said:
As is their album Odessey and Oracle.

Now, sibilant-deficient pseudonyms in this thread aside, that is how you typo. Well done, Colin, Rod and company. 

drummerboy said:
Look at this GD MF'n lineup. I'm still amazed by it. (Not trying to argue about it. Just sayin )

Harvey Brooks had me at the Electric Flag.

One of my favorite back-to-backs on any album:

drummerboy said:

ml1 said:
and fwiw, my 3 wtf inductees to the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame have for many years been Darin, James Taylor, and Miles Davis.  All of them great artists in their genres, but rock & roll?  Really?
I'm not going to begrudge anyone an honor like that.  But I'm also not going to get too worked up about who's in and who's not when the Hall itself doesn't seem to have any idea how to define what rock & roll is.  If Miles Davis is in, why not Yo-Yo Ma or Beethoven or John Cage?

um, because they didn't do ******* Brew.
eta: I can't write B!tches?

 but does that make Miles a rock & roller?

ml1 said:

drummerboy said:

ml1 said:
and fwiw, my 3 wtf inductees to the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame have for many years been Darin, James Taylor, and Miles Davis.  All of them great artists in their genres, but rock & roll?  Really?
I'm not going to begrudge anyone an honor like that.  But I'm also not going to get too worked up about who's in and who's not when the Hall itself doesn't seem to have any idea how to define what rock & roll is.  If Miles Davis is in, why not Yo-Yo Ma or Beethoven or John Cage?

um, because they didn't do ******* Brew.
eta: I can't write B!tches?

 but does that make Miles a rock & roller?

 I was just trying point out the non-similarities among your list of artists. With work like BB, you can make plausible arguments about the influence of Davis on rock and therefore his presence in the hall. You can't with Beethoven.

But look at that lineup!

drummerboy said:
 I was just trying point out the non-similarities among your list of artists. With work like BB, you can make plausible arguments about the influence of Davis on rock and therefore his presence in the hall. You can't with Beethoven.
But look at that lineup!

 John Cage was pretty rock & roll. 

drummerboy said:

But look at that lineup!

 Elton John was nothing without Bennie Maupin.

I’m not sure I know what a rock and roller is. Some have very limited criteria and are very expansive in their definitions. 

drummerboy said:

With work like BB,

 Not to mention JJ.

Have you listened to A Tribute to Jack Johnson, ml1?

DaveSchmidt said:

drummerboy said:

With work like BB,

 Not to mention JJ.
Have you listened to A Tribute to Jack Johnson, ml1?

 I have not.

I would not argue that Miles never recorded anything that qualified as rock & roll. But there's no doubt that he was a giant of jazz and not rock & roll. He was inducted as a performer, not a pioneer or an influence. How does he qualify for induction when there are still performers who dedicated their entire careers to rock & roll and are still waiting to get in?

And if the hall isn't going to make genre distinctions, why don't thet just call it the music hall of fame?

annielou said:
I’m not sure I know what a rock and roller is. Some have very limited criteria and are very expansive in their definitions. 

That's my point.  The Hall itself doesn't seem to have any idea what rock & roll is.  Personally, I think I'm pretty inclusive.  I agree with the induction of Donna Summer, N.W.A., Earth, Wind, & Fire, and other acts that some people might not not consider "rock & roll."  I'm not one of those people who thinks it's just white guys with guitars.

But there generally is some idea of what rock & roll isn't.  Why isn't Garth Brooks in the Hall?  He's as much a rock & roller as Miles Davis was.  Arguably he's a lot more of a rock & roller than James Taylor is.

I don't think it disparages Miles Davis one bit to say he doesn't really belong as a performer in the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame.  To me, it would be like saying the Baseball Hall of Fame should induct Deion Sanders. Sure he played some baseball, and occasionally did some great things on the field.  But nobody thinks of Deion Sanders first as a baseball player.

ml1 said:

DaveSchmidt said:

drummerboy said:

With work like BB,

 Not to mention JJ.
Have you listened to A Tribute to Jack Johnson, ml1?

 I have not.
I would not argue that Miles never recorded anything that qualified as rock & roll. But there's no doubt that he was a giant of jazz and not rock & roll. He was inducted as a performer, not a pioneer or an influence. How does he qualify for induction when there are still performers who dedicated their entire careers to rock & roll and are still waiting to get in?
And if the hall isn't going to make genre distinctions, why don't thet just call it the music hall of fame?

Such inconsistencies are the charm of the HOF and what make it such a lovable punching bag.

drummerboy said:

ml1 said:

DaveSchmidt said:

drummerboy said:

With work like BB,

 Not to mention JJ.
Have you listened to A Tribute to Jack Johnson, ml1?

 I have not.
I would not argue that Miles never recorded anything that qualified as rock & roll. But there's no doubt that he was a giant of jazz and not rock & roll. He was inducted as a performer, not a pioneer or an influence. How does he qualify for induction when there are still performers who dedicated their entire careers to rock & roll and are still waiting to get in?
And if the hall isn't going to make genre distinctions, why don't thet just call it the music hall of fame?

Such inconsistencies are the charm of the HOF and what make it such a lovable punching bag.

true.  it might be the most ridiculous award this side of a Golden Globe.

ml1 said:

DaveSchmidt said:

drummerboy said:

With work like BB,

 Not to mention JJ.
Have you listened to A Tribute to Jack Johnson, ml1?

 I have not.
I would not argue that Miles never recorded anything that qualified as rock & roll. But there's no doubt that he was a giant of jazz and not rock & roll. He was inducted as a performer, not a pioneer or an influence. How does he qualify for induction when there are still performers who dedicated their entire careers to rock & roll and are still waiting to get in?
And if the hall isn't going to make genre distinctions, why don't thet just call it the music hall of fame?

This is the explanation by the Hall of Fame, fwiw -

Miles Davis is one of the key figures in the history of jazz, and his place in vanguard of that pantheon is secure.

His induction as a performer into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame is a subtler and less obvious matter.

Davis never played rock or rhythm & blues, though he experimented with funk grooves on 1972’s On the Corner and in some of his later bands.

However, his work intrigued a sizable segment of rock’s more ambitious fans in a way that no other serious jazz figure had ever done—not posthumously, but while he was alive and making some of his most challenging music. In particular, the boldly experimental soundscapes of Davis’ 1969 album ******* Brew spoke to the sensibilities of rock fans who had been digesting the Grateful Dead’s expansive improvisations. Davis was acutely attuned to his environment, and he once remarked, “We play what the day recommends.”

Davis’ exposure to the rock audience owes much to concert promoter Bill Graham, who booked Davis at his Fillmore auditoriums. Graham figured that his open-eared audiences would make the connection between venturesome San Francisco jam bands (like the Dead, Quicksilver and Santana) and Davis’ free-flowing ensemble. This exposure allowed Davis to cross over without compromise, and he actually recorded albums—Miles Davis at Fillmore (1970) and Black Beauty (1973)—at Graham’s Fillmore East and Fillmore West, respectively.

https://www.rockhall.com/inductees/miles-davis

Deadheads are to blame for everything.

nohero said:

This is the explanation by the Hall of Fame, fwiw -

Miles Davis is one of the key figures in the history of jazz, and his place in vanguard of that pantheon is secure.

His induction as a performer into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame is a subtler and less obvious matter.

Davis never played rock or rhythm & blues, though he experimented with funk grooves on 1972’s On the Corner and in some of his later bands.

However, his work intrigued a sizable segment of rock’s more ambitious fans in a way that no other serious jazz figure had ever done—not posthumously, but while he was alive and making some of his most challenging music. In particular, the boldly experimental soundscapes of Davis’ 1969 album ******* Brew spoke to the sensibilities of rock fans who had been digesting the Grateful Dead’s expansive improvisations. Davis was acutely attuned to his environment, and he once remarked, “We play what the day recommends.”

Davis’ exposure to the rock audience owes much to concert promoter Bill Graham, who booked Davis at his Fillmore auditoriums. Graham figured that his open-eared audiences would make the connection between venturesome San Francisco jam bands (like the Dead, Quicksilver and Santana) and Davis’ free-flowing ensemble. This exposure allowed Davis to cross over without compromise, and he actually recorded albums—Miles Davis at Fillmore (1970) and Black Beauty (1973)—at Graham’s Fillmore East and Fillmore West, respectively.

https://www.rockhall.com/inductees/miles-davis

I know there's a rationale.  I just don't find it terribly convincing.  I think if you're going to use that explanation, it makes a really good case for Ravi Shankar being inducted before Miles.  

That said, I'm not arguing against anyone's inclusion in the Hall.  If the Hall decided that there are artists of merit for induction, good for them. 

I was reacting more to a person with the handle "Robert Casotto" stating such negativity toward a Todd Rundgren induction.  I mean, seriously?  If Bobby Darin is in, bring on Todd Rundgren.  And while we're at it, John Denver.

If we just look at the artists produced by Rundgren, he should be in without a second thought.

https://rateyourmusic.com/list/R9350/produced_by_todd_rundgren/

I don't even think you have to get to the artists produced by Rundgren to realize he's an in, although he was an accomplished and much sought after producer.  He had a mega-hit with "Hello its Me," a slightly less big but big hit with "I Saw the Light" and a bunch of other songs that were staples of FM rock radio for many years.  At least one of his albums shows up on multiple top albums of all time lists.

Richie Valens, a one hit wonder (yes its a great song) with a less than one year career before his tragic death gets in but not Rundgren?  Gene Vincent gets in on the strength of Be-Bop-a-Lula and not much else but not Todd?  Kooky.

Your turn, Garth.

That's always been one of the better album covers out there.

And as much of a paint in the arse the HOF is, this thread did get me to look at some music I had forgotten about.

Sorry Miles - I'll pay more attention going forward.

Ritchie Valens’s highest-charting hit:

Even as a one hit wonder ( actually two, u forgot about La Bamba ), Valens instantly went into music mythology with the “day the music died”. Can’t get more rock and roll than that!

annielou said:
Even as a one hit wonder ( actually two, u forgot about La Bamba ), Valens instantly went into music mythology with the “day the music died”. Can’t get more rock and roll than that!

I think the one we tend to forget is Donna. (Not to mention Come On, Let’s Go, which just missed the Top 40.)

Second-best thing I’ve seen tonight.

https://mobile.twitter.com/_hidingwithboys/status/1111780091477016583/video/1