Panel votes to suspend Ms. Lawson-Muhammad
This may be the whitest sentence in the whole document:
“In recommending this penalty, the Commission gave due consideration to Respondent’s testimony as to how she felt during the traffic stop, and her stated mindset based on actual and observed interactions with police officers.”
I watched it again with an eye and ear out for anything the cop might have done to contribute to the tension. Nada. Zip. No sarcasm. No rudeness. In the face of her racist comments he was completely professional. If you want to talk about de-escalating an encounter, find a better example. She wanted to fight. He refused to.
jeffl said:
She wanted to fight. He refused to.
I don’t think that’s what it means to de-escalate.
ETA: As sprout put it, “The officer did not escalate the interaction. Maybe in ‘not escalating’ the officer performed well. But ‘not escalating’ is not the same as ‘de-escalating.’”
As Lawson-Muhammad put it, “I just needed someone to say: I’m not gonna hurt you. You’re fine. This is just a normal police stop.”
I am a white woman. I was speeding in Montclair (37 in a 25). I apologized, remained calm and was still issued a ticket.
I work to promote social justice every day. I believe efforts to combat racism are diluted when so much focus is put on a situation like this.
DaveSchmidt said:
jeffl said:I don’t think that’s what it means to de-escalate.
She wanted to fight. He refused to.
ETA: As sprout put it, “The officer did not escalate the interaction. Maybe in ‘not escalating’ the officer performed well. But ‘not escalating’ is not the same as ‘de-escalating.’”
As Lawson-Muhammad put it, “I just needed someone to say: I’m not gonna hurt you. You’re fine. This is just a normal police stop.”
Let's be clear (again). You're description of this, on it's face, shows that this was never the kind of de-escalation scenario contemplated by police dept de-escalation programs. What I'm seeing her after the fact explanation of her own misbehavior, i.e. if he used different nice words than the nice words he used throughout, I would have behaved better. Never mind that the nice words and manner the cop used exuded the exact safety/routineness message her after the fact self-serving explanation points to, this was never a dangerous situation. I really believe this video will show up one day in a police de-escalation class as an example of how to de-escalate. You don't have to be a cop to know that no matter how nice and calm one person is in an interaction, the other person might just be an a-hole.
There may be room for disagreement about different facets of this incident and its aftermath, but this whole you-didn't de-escalate properly theme is bizzaro.
bub said:
DaveSchmidt said:Let's be clear (again). You're description of this, on it's face, shows that this was never the kind of de-escalation scenario contemplated by police dept de-escalation programs. What I'm seeing her after the fact explanation of her own misbehavior, i.e. if he used different nice words than the nice words he used throughout, I would have behaved better. Never mind that the nice words and manner the cop used exuded the exact safety/routineness message her after the fact self-serving explanation points to, this was never a dangerous situation. I really believe this video will show up one day in a police de-escalation class as an example of how to de-escalate. You don't have to be a cop to know that no matter how nice and calm one person is in an interaction, the other person might just be an a-hole.
jeffl said:I don’t think that’s what it means to de-escalate.
She wanted to fight. He refused to.
ETA: As sprout put it, “The officer did not escalate the interaction. Maybe in ‘not escalating’ the officer performed well. But ‘not escalating’ is not the same as ‘de-escalating.’”
As Lawson-Muhammad put it, “I just needed someone to say: I’m not gonna hurt you. You’re fine. This is just a normal police stop.”
There may be room for disagreement about different facets of this incident and its aftermath, but this whole you-didn't de-escalate properly theme is bizzaro.
This is one of those thread where no one is going to change their mind no matter what someone else writes.
jeffl said:
This is one of those thread where no one is going to change their mind no matter what someone else writes.Click to Read More
one of thousands
jeffl said:
This is one of those thread where no one is going to change their mind no matter what someone else writes.
If one of my team’s stars had a three-homer game, I might be distracted, too.
cramer said:
eta - I should add that @phenixrising's post made a big impression, and helped me understand the situation.
Oh, plus this guy.
DaveSchmidt said:
I confess to scratching my head a little, too. But credit to sprout: She got even a lunk like me to understand.
ETA: And at the risk of over-quoting myself —
This may be the whitest sentence in the whole document
This may be the whitest thread on all of MOL.
phenixrising said:
I think sprout made a valid point. A person of color would have interpreted the question differently and, it may have contributed to escalating SLM irrational behavior. Not blaming the officer, maybe he didn't know how a certain question could trigger a person of color or anyone.
Besides that question, the officer kept his cool during the whole altercation.
No way am I excusing SLM behavior. Personally, I'm surprised she's still on the board. Calling the Police Chief a skinhead, and using her authority to talk her way out of a ticket, is reasoning for her to go and it sure doesn't help her case.
SLM is lucky. Her outcome would have been different had she been in another city/state and the wrong kind of officer who looked for anything to use force. Can I say her name? Sandra Bland.
DaveSchmidt - This is phenixrsing's entire post.
“I just needed someone to say: I’m not gonna hurt you. You’re fine. This is just a normal police stop.”
The cop didn't say that explicitly but his actions, demeanor, and tone said it loud and clear. That should be enough IMO.
And, any claim that fear for her physical safety was the overriding emotion is undermined by her behavior. If you're scared, you're probably not going to threaten to call your mayor friend or use a racial slur.
cramer said:
DaveSchmidt - This is phenixrsing's entire post.
If I misunderstood you, and it was that paragraph and not phenixrising’s first that made an impression, I apologize.
bub said:
Let's be clear (again). You're description of this, on it's face, shows that this was never the kind of de-escalation scenario contemplated by police dept de-escalation programs.
The concept of de-escalation in law enforcement originally came from strategies for managing mentally ill citizens. As this moved to managing additional challenging situations, training scenarios were developed that range from "Role-Play: Unhappy Citizen" to "Scenario: Active Shooter".
In other words, de-escalating citizens who are not mentally ill but who are simply "upset" is currently contemplated in police de-escalation training programs.
Good time to take the unhappy, mentally ill, active shooter (!) off of the BOE then. 6 months to de-escalate.
“Mr. kmt, you’ve come before the Residents Association to represent a neighbor who’d like to keep a Halloween decoration hanging by its neck from a tree. We’d like to introduce you to the nine committee members who will be deciding your request. All but one are African-American. Any objection?”
kmt said:
Good time to take the unhappy, mentally ill, active shooter (!) off of the BOE then. 6 months to de-escalate.
When your teenage son starts driving, has some friends in the car, and gets pulled over for speeding (or texting while driving), he might start freaking out. How much trouble is he going to be in with you? Do his emotions tend towards fear of your disappointment, or more towards anger because he doesn't think it's fair that he's the one getting picked on when other people were speeding too? How cool does he have to look in front of his friends?
The newly fluctuating testosterone starts to interact with his fight-or-flight instinct -- and even though he was taught to stay calm at traffic stops, the sass that teens sometimes give us as parents when we tell them what to do, starts to come out of his mouth.
Specifically, Would you prefer if your freaking out kid got:
- a police officer who tends to arrest people to teach them a lesson?
- a police officer who is normally calm, but is now running frustrated as this is the 3rd traffic stop tonight with a teenager who thinks they are so damn important, running their mouth and alternating between playing tough-guy, and name-dropping, in front of the girl in the passenger seat who is videoing this whole thing?
- a police officer who can just de-escalate him, so he can calmly comply and not make a fool of himself. Maybe also coach him so that in the future, he can retain perspective ("This is just a normal police stop"), and manage himself better on his own?
Oh, and I forgot to mention -- somehow, your kid, and all the teens in the car, are now Black. And it's nighttime.
My hope that the PD has gotten good training and is practiced in de-escalating teenagers like this. I hope my kid gets officer #3. (And at this point... I don't really care whether SLM got a 6 month suspension or not).
jeffl said:
This is one of those thread where no one is going to change their mind no matter what someone else writes.
To reply to this in a different gear: I think about this a lot, and it troubles me. When was the last time any of us white Americans changed our opinion about something related to racism? And what worked in getting us to do so?
DaveSchmidt said:
“Mr. kmt, you’ve come before the Residents Association to represent a neighbor who’d like to keep a Halloween decoration hanging by its neck from a tree. We’d like to introduce you to the nine committee members who will be deciding your request. All but one are African-American. Any objection?”
That's an offensive comparison. Seriously.
Red_Barchetta said:
That's an offensive comparison. Seriously.
I’m open to hearing why.
DaveSchmidt said:
“I was overreacting. I was anxious. I just needed someone to say: I’m not gonna hurt you. You’re fine. This is just a normal police stop.”
This is a very convenient after-the-fact explanation meant to downplay her overreaction. Based on the behavior we have observed I have a feeling that had the officer said this exact sentence at the time of the stop it would have been received the same way his ambulance inquiry was.
Red_Barchetta said:
DaveSchmidt said:That's an offensive comparison. Seriously.
“Mr. kmt, you’ve come before the Residents Association to represent a neighbor who’d like to keep a Halloween decoration hanging by its neck from a tree. We’d like to introduce you to the nine committee members who will be deciding your request. All but one are African-American. Any objection?”
DaveSchmidt said:
Red_Barchetta said:I’m open to hearing why.
That's an offensive comparison. Seriously.
Because it's not 1950.
Red_Barchetta said:
Because it's not 1950.
Forgive me if the composition of the School Ethics Commission threw me for a time loop.
Red_Barchetta said:
Red_Barchetta said:
DaveSchmidt said:That's an offensive comparison. Seriously.
“Mr. kmt, you’ve come before the Residents Association to represent a neighbor who’d like to keep a Halloween decoration hanging by its neck from a tree. We’d like to introduce you to the nine committee members who will be deciding your request. All but one are African-American. Any objection?”
DaveSchmidt said:Because it's not 1950.
Red_Barchetta said:I’m open to hearing why.
That's an offensive comparison. Seriously.
DaveSchmidt said:
Red_Barchetta said:Forgive me if the composition of the School Ethics Commission threw me for a time loop.
Because it's not 1950.
No, I will not forgive you. Do you always assume racism is in action whenever there is a group of all white men making a decision?
Red_Barchetta said:No, I will not forgive you. Do you always assume racism is in action whenever there is a group of all white men making a decision?
When they’re tasked with a decision that involves race, I’d be a damn fool to discount it.
DaveSchmidt said:
When they’re tasked with a decision that involves race, I’d be a damn fool to discount it.
Does it really involve race? Was Ms. L-M treated the way she was because of her race? If a black runner is narrowly tagged out by a white second baseman does there need to be a minority ump?
Do you know something about this panel or its' members? Should some of the white members have been dismissed and replaced by minority or female members because this case came along? I don't think it's appropriate to assume racism without any evidence.
Red_Barchetta said:
Does it really involve race?
Lawson-Muhammad’s explanation for her actions, as I read them, rested on a few main themes: a harried morning, some aspects of the officer and his conduct — and, at the root, her experiences and social position as a black woman.
I don't think it's appropriate to assume racism without any evidence.
I’ll add that (on my way out to finally enjoy this beautiful day) to the differences I’ve observed between us.
Of course it isn’t about race. It’s one of the sad decisions that SLM made to bring race into a routine traffic stop. It just cheapens the real problems with racism in this country to even dignify that level of cynicism with a response.
DaveSchmidt said:
jeffl said:To reply to this in a different gear: I think about this a lot, and it troubles me. When was the last time any of us white Americans changed our opinion about something related to racism? And what worked in getting us to do so?
This is one of those thread where no one is going to change their mind no matter what someone else writes.
You could have stopped that question after “opinions.”
Red_Barchetta said:
DaveSchmidt said:No, I will not forgive you. Do you always assume racism is in action whenever there is a group of all white men making a decision?
Red_Barchetta said:Forgive me if the composition of the School Ethics Commission threw me for a time loop.
Because it's not 1950.
Ooh, ooh ooh Ask me, ask me!
I can’t wait any longer. Here’s the answer:
No, of course not. I always assume that a group of white men will make a decision based on their individual experiences and a desire to maintain whatever apparatus is in place that would keep the decision-making process in the hands of white men.
I think this perspective makes sense. I’d also assume that that same group of white men tasked with making a decision concerning women would use the same criteria in an effort to achieve similar results.
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The comps the commission used to guide Lawson-Muhammad’s punishment: