Panel votes to suspend Ms. Lawson-Muhammad
cramer said: sprout - Honestly, you're just trying to find things now. My mistake was quoting Sheena's statement that the SOPD had undertaken de-escalation training. A good deed (on Sheena's part) never goes unpunished.
Digging into the details is precisely what such a case study allows for, and how it can be used as a learning tool.
My hope is that our PD/community relations improve; and that the safety of our officers is held paramount. My critiques stem from those goals.
sprout - I share your goals, as I'm sure Sheena and the SOPD do, as can be seen in the last paragraph of Sheena's statement.
Great.
But I guess you just don't agree with using this video as a learning tool about officer escalation / non-escalation/ and de-escalation of a situation? And don't like the ways I illustrated escalation and non-escalation in the video, while suggesting that de-escalation could have been applied instead?
DaveSchmidt said:“The commission members were completely ill suited to judge my fear and the real intentions of my words. They lacked corroborating evidence, expertise and, most especially, personal experience.”
I'd love to know her "real intention" when calling the Chief of Police a "skinhead."
By definition, no one has had her personal experience. What I think she meant was a similar experience as a person of color. Finally, is a full video not enough corroborating evidence? What additional evidence does she think is needed?
sprout - In order to de-escalate this conversation, I agree that the video could be used as a learning tool. I suggest you contact Sheena Collum, who I know is open to suggestions.
eta - I should add that @phenixrising's post made a big impression, and helped me understand the situation.
sprout said:
mikescott said:De-escalation would include the officer recognizing the person's concerns about being late, while indicating that the officer still needs to give them a ticket, but will go through the process as quickly as possible, which takes about X minutes.
No. Being late is a meaningless excuse, it rolls off the tongue very easily and in my opinion should be dismissed without consideration.
ml1 said:
cramer said:"as soon as possible" is a meaningless phrase in the context of telling someone how long they'll be detained. When I'm on a delayed subway the MTA conductors always tell us we'll be moving "as soon as possible," which is a time frame somewhere between 30 seconds and 30 minutes.
0.33 on the video: "Ok, ma'm, I'll try to get you out of here as soon as possible."
And yet she wanted the officer to wait until her husband sent a valid insurance card so that she could avoid a court appearance. Looks to me like she wasn't in much of a hurry after all.
Red_Barchetta said:
No. Being late is a meaningless excuse, it rolls off the tongue very easily and in my opinion should be dismissed without consideration.
The validity of the excuse is not the concern.
If it is a citizen-volatility/officer-safety risk factor, then it is a concern.
Has anyone addressed the fact that a member of the school board was speeding in front of a park? I don't speed in front of parks or schools. I just don't. Whatever the speed limit is, that is how fast I am going and, if someone wants to pass me, thats on them.
I wouldn't expect anything less from a woman charged by the voters with overseeing our children's education.
Thank you @Klinker, that’s a great point. “Oh we need to talk about RACE and police de-escalation procedures and BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH.”
You have a school board member speeding next to a park who threw EVERYTHING at a cop who was just doing his job to protect kids! And these apologists want to enable her entitlement and make this about everything but her behavior!
And then the ethics committee decides that she was in the wrong and she doubles down on her entitlement and the enablers come out to defend her! Pathetic!
Klinker said:
Has anyone addressed the fact that a member of the school board was speeding in front of a park? I don't speed in front of parks or schools. I just don't. Whatever the speed limit is, that is how fast I am going and, if someone wants to pass me, thats on them.
I wouldn't expect anything less from a woman charged by the voters with overseeing our children's education.
Lawson-Muhammad driving past the park:
The whole de-escalation technique thing is a red herring. With cops, it's meant to apply to dangerous situations that might lead to violence - police violence to be specific. There's was never any danger of that here. It's not some catch all concept to require cops to (a) reduce the discomfort of a driver in a routine traffic stop situation (b) stop the driver from putting his/her foot in mouth in trying to pull rank or (c) prevent the driver from being obnoxious and verbally abusive.
kmt said:
Thank you @Klinker, that’s a great point. “Oh we need to talk about RACE and police de-escalation procedures and BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH.”
You have a school board member speeding next to a park who threw EVERYTHING at a cop who was just doing his job to protect kids! And these apologists want to enable her entitlement and make this about everything but her behavior!
And then the ethics committee decides that she was in the wrong and she doubles down on her entitlement and the enablers come out to defend her! Pathetic!
THIS ^^^^^
She made a mistake for which she apologized. Let he who is without sin throw the first stone. To say I'm disappointed with the way people within (and without - yes, you, kmt) continue to attack a community membership volunteers her time is disgusting. If you don't like her Board votes, criticize them on the merits.
Steve - have you read the full Ethics Board ruling? It’s pretty damning and clear, but Ms Muhammad chose to be defiant in her response, rather than accepting responsibility and using this as an opportunity to teach our kids about respect for the police and taking responsibility for wrong actions. She clearly has an issue with authority and does not set a good example for our kids. That has nothing to do with her votes.
bub said:
The whole de-escalation technique thing is a red herring. With cops, it's meant to apply to dangerous situations that might lead to violence - police violence to be specific.
De-Escalation in Police-Citizen Encounters: A Mixed Methods Study of a Misunderstood Policing Strategy
(p. 46) In his Metro-Dade Police/Citizen Violence Reduction study, Fyfe (1987) found that violence typically occurred in four contexts: routine traffic stops, high risk traffic stops, crimes in progress, and interpersonal disputes.
If officers don't practice proactive de-escalation when making routine traffic stops, as well as practice de-escalation with mild volatility, then how will they perform in more stressful situations?
mayhewdrive said:
Steve - have you read the full Ethics Board ruling? It’s pretty damning and clear, but Ms Muhammad chose to be defiant in her response, rather than accepting responsibility and using this as an opportunity to teach our kids about respect for the police and taking responsibility for wrong actions. She clearly has an issue with authority and does not set a good example for our kids. That has nothing to do with her votes.
I have not, but she apologized. I truly believe that this is being blown way out of proportion for political reasons. Fighting an administrative ruling is appropriate if you can't negotiate a resolution. Do trustees have stickers on their cars identifying them? Does that help them avoid certain tickets? Come on. Let's be honest here - who hasn't tried to get out of a ticket.
1) she apologized only after this became public last year
2) her comments this week were defiant and not at all apologetic
3) you should read the full ruling. It’s very thorough and compelling.
4) Trustees do have Parking stickers, but I’m not aware of anyone getting out of a ticket as a result.
mayhewdrive said:
4) Trustees do have Parking stickers, but I’m not aware of anyone getting out of a ticket as a result.
How many tickets, parking included, are not written because of these stickers? What is the purpose of the stickers? How many times did someone not get pulled over because of the sticker? Why would you know if someone avoided a ticket? He or she would go around bragging about it?
Truly, I'm embarrassed by this community's behavior.
Steve said:
Let's be honest here - who hasn't tried to get out of a ticket.
Well that says a lot about your standards and the significance of your “embarrassment” at the community holding people accountable I guess.
kmt said:
Steve said:Well that says a lot about your standards and the significance of your “embarrassment” at the community holding people accountable I guess.
Let's be honest here - who hasn't tried to get out of a ticket.
Yes, you're so ******* perfect. Give me a break. You moved - stay out of our business.
mayhewdrive said:
3) you should read the full ruling. It’s very thorough and compelling.
I did, in the nasally way of Tucker Carlson. It was almost white enough. Thanks for the suggestion, kmt.
Steve said:
mayhewdrive said:How many tickets, parking included, are not written because of these stickers? What is the purpose of the stickers? How many times did someone not get pulled over because of the sticker? Why would you know if someone avoided a ticket? He or she would go around bragging about it?
4) Trustees do have Parking stickers, but I’m not aware of anyone getting out of a ticket as a result.
Truly, I'm embarrassed by this community's behavior.
The purpose of the sticker is to provide the ONLY "perk" of being a Trustee - being allowed to park for free in Permit spaces. The stickers are located on the SIDE windows, so I highly doubt an officer can see them while you are driving. I have heard of Trustees who DID receive tickets and dealt with them like an adult, without throwing a temper tantrum, as was exhibited on that video. That behavior is what we should be embarrassed by.
Our leaders should teach us to respect authority and take responsibility for their actions, not play victim.
kmt said:
Sounds like I touched a nerve, tough guy.
No, not a nerve. Just honest enough to admit what we've all done in one way or another (just as Sprout described getting out of a couple of tickets). You're just a pompous ***.
mayhewdrive - please. Also, where is it written that the sticker entitles one to park for free in permit spaces? How many overtime meter tickets have been written to stickereed vehicles! Also, I see them in rear windows all of the time.
Steve said:
mayhewdrive - please. Also, where is it written that the sticker entitles one to park for free in permit spaces? How many overtime meter tickets have been written to stickereed vehicles! Also, I see them in rear windows all of the time.
You'd have to ask the Parking Authority those questions. In any event, this is all a distraction from the topic at hand - the State Ethics Board reviewed all the evidence and provided a recommendation for Ms. Muhammad to be suspended for 6 months.
sprout said:
bub said:
The whole de-escalation technique thing is a red herring. With cops, it's meant to apply to dangerous situations that might lead to violence - police violence to be specific.
De-Escalation in Police-Citizen Encounters: A Mixed Methods Study of a Misunderstood Policing Strategy
(p. 46) In his Metro-Dade Police/Citizen Violence Reduction study, Fyfe (1987) found that violence typically occurred in four contexts: routine traffic stops, high risk traffic stops, crimes in progress, and interpersonal disputes.If officers don't practice proactive de-escalation when making routine traffic stops, as well as practice de-escalation with mild volatility, then how will they perform in more stressful situations?
He was the embodiment of de-escalation from beginning to end. There was nothing to de-escalate. Your whole theme of inadequate de-escalation in this case remains inscrutable.
“I was overreacting. I was anxious. I just needed someone to say: I’m not gonna hurt you. You’re fine. This is just a normal police stop.”
Here is the entirety of Sheena's statement, which was issued after the video was released:
To Members of the South Orange Community:
Yesterday various news outlets broke a story involving a local school board member during a routine traffic stop that occurred on April 27, 2018. Video footage was also obtained and has been made available to the public.
First, I applaud the professionalism of Patrol Officer Shaun Horst, a sentiment I conveyed to him in person shortly after I was made aware of the incident. His actions, as captured on the dashboard camera, are to be expected by each and every officer that proudly serves our community as a member of our South Orange Police Department. Under the leadership of Police Chief Kyle Kroll, ongoing and proactive professional development efforts have been underway, including an emphasis on de-escalation training which occurred last year.
Next, the question has been raised about whether or not the school board member had used her status as an elected official or references to contacting me as a means to seek privilege. A call to me never occurred and I assure you that I have not nor will I use my position of influence to alter the outcome of any police operation.
Lastly, a derogatory and hurtful comment was made about our Police Chief at the conclusion of the traffic stop. A meeting had been requested by the board member prior to this incident becoming public and has since occurred. An apology has been made both privately and publicly and accepted by our Police Chief. While he has opted not to make any public comments to date, he has conveyed to me his personal desire to move forward together and focus his efforts on serving the South Orange community to the best of his ability — which he has proudly done for 30 years.
On a personal note, I ask members of our community to look within themselves and be a part of the healing process and identify constructive ways to move forward together. With every challenge that comes before us, we have a choice of whether to incite division or seek out opportunities to better understand each other and grow stronger. As we set examples for our youth, I hope it is the latter. Our standards must remain high, and accountability can take various forms, whether it be punitive or restorative – the question is which better serves our purposes. The South Orange community, along with our sister town of Maplewood, is known for having hard but much needed conversations about race, intentional integration, implicit bias, community policing, social justice, privilege — and the list continues. These conversations are not easy — and sometimes uncomfortable — but are absolutely necessary. The Village has not been without fault, and while this unfortunate incident has made its way into the court of public opinion, both public and private meetings occur regularly with members of our community who have the courage to share their experiences and work with us to improve public safety operations. These agendas and concerns are often guided by a desire to bring about constructive change for the betterment of all our residents and guests. For that, I am grateful.
I, along with my colleagues on the Board of Trustees, remain committed to partnering and working collaboratively with the community as we move forward.
Sincerely,
Sheena Collum
Village President