Panel votes to suspend Ms. Lawson-Muhammad

lord_pabulum said:

So I think it is standard operating procedure.

If it is, that would jibe with sprout’s call for a change in operating procedures.

DaveSchmidt said:
If it is, that would jibe with sprout’s call for a change in operating procedures.

How is an officer going to know whether to ask if the person wants an ambulance or not?  You're asking a police officer to make a very important determination. Isn't is better to err on the side of caution, if in fact it is standard operating procedure? 

DaveSchmidt said:

lord_pabulum said:

So I think it is standard operating procedure.

If it is, that would jibe with sprout’s call for a change in operating procedures.

 Yes...it's positively barbaric for a cop to ask if you need an ambulance. Should have gone the way of billy clubs on heads a long time ago. 

cramer said:

How is an officer going to know whether to ask if the person wants an ambulance or not?  You're asking a police officer to make a very important determination. Isn't is better to err on the side of caution, if in fact it is standard operating procedure? 

It’s better, I imagine de-escalation advocates saying, to be trained not to err on the side of caution, and to make very important determinations about what questions to ask with a broader set of “tools.” 

20-20 hindsight is wonderful - just like guessing what was going thru someone's mind (officer or SML).  Maybe the police officer did not handle it perfectly.  Still does not excuse the behavior of a member of the BOE  who herself has to deal with parents who often come screaming at BOE meetings.   I have seen her in some uncomfortable situations and she manages just fine to stay calm and reasonable.  So my feeling based on having talked with SML and having seen her with some angry parents, she herself should certainly know how to control herself when she was stopped for speeding.

DaveSchmidt said:
It’s better, I imagine de-escalation advocates saying, to be trained not to err on the side of caution, and to make very important determinations about what questions to ask with a broader set of “tools.” 

 I'm not trying to be sarcastic (that's the last thing we need) but are there supposed to be different rules for whites and AA's as to whether an officer should ask someone whether they would like an ambulance?

cramer said:

DaveSchmidt said:
If it is, that would jibe with sprout’s call for a change in operating procedures.

How is an officer going to know whether to ask if the person wants an ambulance or not?  You're asking a police officer to make a very important determination. Isn't is better to err on the side of caution, if in fact it is standard operating procedure? 

The change in standard operating procedures I'm suggesting (and which the SOPD indicated they are trained in) is the use of de-escalation from first contact with a citizen. 

The officer did not use any de-escalation techniques. If he had, it's possible she would not have become so distressed in the first place.

cramer said:

 I'm not trying to be sarcastic (that's the last thing we need) but are there supposed to be different rules for whites and AA's as to whether an officer should ask someone whether they would like an ambulance?

If training includes awareness efforts like that, who am I to argue? Because I don’t think phenixrising was being sarcastic, either.

phenixrising said:

I think sprout made a valid point. A person of color would have interpreted the question differently and, it may have contributed to escalating SLM irrational behavior. Not blaming the officer, maybe he didn't know how a certain question could trigger a person of color or anyone.

mikescott said:
20-20 hindsight is wonderful - just like guessing what was going thru someone's mind (officer or SML).  Maybe the police officer did not handle it perfectly.  Still does not excuse the behavior of a member of the BOE  who herself has to deal with parents who often come screaming at BOE meetings.   I have seen her in some uncomfortable situations and she manages just fine to stay calm and reasonable.  So my feeling based on having talked with SML and having seen her with some angry parents, she herself should certainly know how to control herself when she was stopped for speeding.

I don’t recall that anyone on MOL has excused her behavior. There have been, however, some attempts to understand why a normally calm and reasonable person behaved the way she did during a traffic stop without assuming ulterior, calculated motives.

ETA: It’s clear to me that when you say, “Maybe the police officer did not handle it perfectly,” you are not questioning his professionalism or character. I’ve been reading sprout’s comments in the same context.

mikescott said:
I have seen her in some uncomfortable situations and she manages just fine to stay calm and reasonable.  So my feeling based on having talked with SML and having seen her with some angry parents, she herself should certainly know how to control herself when she was stopped for speeding.

As a BOE member and an African American parent, performance of one's child on a PARCC test is likely more stressful, as it may feel like one will be evaluated (at least somewhat) as representing their race in the educational arena.

As you evidenced, she maintains emotional control under stress on most days. But as the likelihood of lateness for her daughter's PARCC test increased, she may have seen her goal for her daughter's performance slipping away. 

So, she was in a rush and going through every strategy in the book (at lightening speed) to be get let go with a warning so she could be on her way. And it didn't work (even though apparently Jaytee, kmt, and bklyngrl also thought an apology for speeding might be sufficient). So, then SLM became desperate and angry.

I'm guessing being in a rush and worried about being late is a common issue when stopping someone for speeding.  De-escalation would include the officer recognizing the person's concerns about being late, while indicating that the officer still needs to give them a ticket, but will go through the process as quickly as possible, which takes about X minutes.

sprout said:
I'm guessing being in a rush and worried about being late is a common issue when stopping someone for speeding.  De-escalation would include the officer recognizing the person's concerns about being late, while indicating that the officer still needs to give them a ticket, but will go through the process as quickly as possible, which takes about X minutes.

0.33 on the video: "Ok, ma'm, I'll try to get you out of here as soon as possible." 

cramer said:
0.33 on the video: "Ok, ma'm, I'll try to get you out of here as soon as possible." 

 "as soon as possible" is a meaningless phrase in the context of telling someone how long they'll be detained.  When I'm on a delayed subway the MTA conductors always tell us we'll be moving "as soon as possible," which is a time frame somewhere between 30 seconds and 30 minutes.

ml1 said:
 "as soon as possible" is a meaningless phrase in the context of telling someone how long they'll be detained.  When I'm on a delayed subway the MTA conductors always tell us we'll be moving "as soon as possible," which is a time frame somewhere between 30 seconds and 30 minutes.

I guess assuming that the driver has their driver's license and insurance card readily available, it might be possible for an officer to be able to give a window. But here, SLM didn't have her driver's license at first and didn't have a current insurance card. So yes, if everything goes perfectly, it might be possible to give a time frame. "If you have your driver's license and insurance card and nothing adverse shows up when I put them in the computer, you should be out of here in -- minutes." 

The Officer should have whipped up a piping hot cup of Chamomile tea and offered a back massage.

And then at the end the PO could have brought one of these up to the driver's side window. Changing "restroom" to "police" of course. 

kmt said:
The subject is SLM’s arrogant rejection of the ethics committee’s judgment against her.  

IF the commission is entirely composed of white men, or even if all but one or two of the eight or nine members are, then that’s OK, because its judgment is correct.

Sprout, keep making excuses for SLM, but I for one am not buying it.  The officer remained calm and did not slow down the process.   

YOU are guessing why she was agitated --- but if she was so concerned about the timing she would have made arrangements with another parent to car-pool that morning or some other option.  

She was speeding  -- plain and simple.  The officer did not escalate the situation -- he remained calm.  To speed up the process rather than wait for her to get a copy of the insurance card he issued the ticket right away.  Yes it meant going to court at a later date but his actions got her back on the road faster.  She clearly wanted him to let her off with a warning and that was made evident by the way she said she knew Sheena.   

Poor planning on her part is not an excuse for speeding.  

When stopped by a cop, some people get nervous, some people become super apologetic, and some people become arrogant and self-righteous.  I doubt that arrogant and self-righteous ever got anyone what they wanted.  

I doubt that arrogant and self-righteous cost many public officials a six-month suspension.

DaveSchmidt said:
I doubt that arrogant and self-righteous cost many public officials a six-month suspension.

 I am sure this is not the first time nor will it be the last.  

There's battle lines being drawn
Nobody's right if everybody's wrong

Paranoia strikes deep
Into your life it will creep

We better stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down

This thread is getting super corny 

mikescott said:
Sprout, keep making excuses for SLM, but I for one am not buying it.  The officer remained calm and did not slow down the process.   

Someone else brought up that they had seen SLM calm under stressful situations. I just provided context of why someone who might normally keep their cool could lose it.

My point was not to "make excuses" for SLM. It is that stopping someone for speeding when they are already stressed out about being late could be fairly common. So, if officers were aware of this, and of the tendency for these dual stressors to bring out a citizen's volatility, they could be more prepared to reduce that volatility (i.e., de-escalate).

Unless, ya know, officers enjoy putting themselves at greater risk from volatile behavior than they have to.

sprout said:

My point was not to "make excuses" for SLM. It is that stopping someone for speeding when they are already stressed out about being late could be fairly common. So, if officers were aware of this, and of the tendency for these dual stressors to bring out a citizen's volatility, they could be more prepared to reduce that volatility (i.e., de-escalate).
Unless, ya know, officers enjoy putting themselves at greater risk from volatile behavior than they have to.

  Do you actually read what you post?  first you say you are not making excuses and then you guess that she might be stressed out.   That is making an excuse.  you have no way of knowing if she was stressed or if that was an excuse.  

And what is the excuse for calling someone she never met a skin head?  

I thnk Officer Nostradamus should have foretold the events before they unfolded, and acted accordingly.

and perhaps blasting some Enya from the squad car.

mikescott said:

Do you actually read what you post?  first you say you are not making excuses and then you guess that she might be stressed out.   That is making an excuse.

I read what she posts. And, especially as a parent, I think I see the difference between trying to understand someone’s behavior and excusing it.

cramer said:
I guess assuming that the driver has their driver's license and insurance card readily available, it might be possible for an officer to be able to give a window. But here, SLM didn't have her driver's license at first and didn't have a current insurance card. 

Which led to another moment: 

• SLM found her license and was waving it out the window for three minutes (from 5:04 to 8:04) so Officer Horst would know she found it.
• Officer Horst then stated information as if she should have known what he was thinking -- when I don't know how she could have. He said:  
  • "Ma'am, Ok you can just put that back in the car Ma'am. I saw it when you were hanging it out the window. You didn't need to keep your arm out the window the entire time".

The bold response is another example of the opposite of de-escalating: Informing her that what she had been doing for the past 3 minutes (trying to show him the license by holding it out her window), had been the wrong thing to do that entire time. He couldn't just say "Thank you" and take the license to look at it? Or acknowledge "Ok, great, I see you have your license."

Why imply that she was stupid??  (I'm feeling kinda stupid and confused myself about what she should have done to alert him to finding her license, or if he didn't even need to look at it at this point, or what?)

This officer is not skilled at interacting with citizens in crisis. I hope SOPD reviews their training to reduce the risk of ending up on the "bad officer" side of a video.

sprout - Honestly, you're just trying to find things now. My mistake was quoting Sheena's statement that the SOPD had undertaken de-escalation training. A good deed (on Sheena's part) never goes unpunished. 

berkeley said:
@DavidSchmidt
Then I do not understand the premise of your post:
"The School Ethics Commission website lists eight members, with one vacancy. (It's dated 2017, but the only term that would have expired is Robert Bender's, and he remains the chairman.)
All are men. None of the seven whose photos I found online appear to be black."

 I thought it was interesting only because it is the perfect example of only white men in charge. In a nuanced case, that could matter a great deal. In this one, not so much.

(Duplicate on next pg)