Mueller Time

And after a coffee break we are back to Nunes. If you think this hearing is a disaster, PSE&G just dug up my front yard. Apparently a gas leak found in the street.

drummerboy said:

Morganna said:
Mueller: No, collusion and conspiracy are not synonymous.
Collins is argumentative and loud. Did he score a point?

 Mueller messed that one up.

It's in the Mueller Report.

I think that accomplished absolutely nothing. It didn’t help, it didn’t hurt. So I’m back to my conclusion when the report came out that this is (and should be) done for now. Use the info to arrest him after he’s out. Don’t keep dragging this thing out- it makes Dems look bad. It’s done now- let’s focus on the election.

conandrob240 said:
I think that accomplished absolutely nothing. It didn’t help, it didn’t hurt. So I’m back to my conclusion when the report came out that this is (and should be) done for now. Use the info to arrest him after he’s out. Don’t keep dragging this thing out- it makes Dems look bad. It’s done now- let’s focus on the election.

 So you are in the no impeachment column? I'm  leaning towards impeachment

Morganna said:

conandrob240 said:
I think that accomplished absolutely nothing. It didn’t help, it didn’t hurt. So I’m back to my conclusion when the report came out that this is (and should be) done for now. Use the info to arrest him after he’s out. Don’t keep dragging this thing out- it makes Dems look bad. It’s done now- let’s focus on the election.

 So you are in the no impeachment column? I'm  leaning towards impeachment

Impeachment proceedings will make it easy for Trump to yammer incessantly about the very unfair witch hunt he has had to endure.  

Wouldn't it be better to focus on the chaos and ineffectiveness of his administration.

I think people who want to impeach Trump are descended from the very same B'rer Fox and B'rer Bear who thought they could punish B'rer Rabbit by throwing him into the briar patch.

tjohn said:
Impeachment proceedings will make it easy for Trump to yammer incessantly about the very unfair witch hunt he has had to endure.  
Wouldn't it be better to focus on the chaos and ineffectiveness of his administration.
I think people who want to impeach Trump are descended from the very same B'rer Fox and B'rer Bear who thought they could punish B'rer Rabbit by throwing him into the briar patch.

 It is rather clear from the Mueller Report that trump is a criminal. If he cannot be impeached for his actions then I cannot imagine that any President could be impeached except for personally killing someone or taking an actual bribe.

The purpose of the Democrats was to make the report known to those who would rather watch TV than read.  Among such people there may actually be some so-called "swing voters". The "base" on either side will just have their views reinforced, but Trump is President by din of 77,000 votes. 

How many people watched the hearings?

tjohn said:
Impeachment proceedings will make it easy for Trump to yammer incessantly about the very unfair witch hunt he has had to endure.  
Wouldn't it be better to focus on the chaos and ineffectiveness of his administration.
I think people who want to impeach Trump are descended from the very same B'rer Fox and B'rer Bear who thought they could punish B'rer Rabbit by throwing him into the briar patch.

 Perhaps on chaos, but with the feeling that his administration is ineffective, I agree but with his base plus those who are benefitting from tax breaks and the market, that might not play. Not sure. And can we see the No Collusion, No Impeachment cry replaying on a loop on twitter and FOX even discussed on MSM? I don't know. But maybe you're right and we should trust Pelosi's instinct.

STANV said:
 It is rather clear from the Mueller Report that trump is a criminal. If he cannot be impeached for his actions then I cannot imagine that any President could be impeached except for personally killing someone or taking an actual bribe.
The purpose of the Democrats was to make the report known to those who would rather watch TV than read.  Among such people there may actually be some so-called "swing voters". The "base" on either side will just have their views reinforced, but Trump is President by din of 77,000 votes. 
How many people watched the hearings?

it's this. If there's no impeachment then any future president can assume he or she can do anything with no accountability.  I'd be voting for impeachment based on just the fact that Trump decided to take funding for his wall without Congressional approval.  As far as I'm concerned any such blantant violation of the oath to uphold the Constitution by a POTUS should be grounds for impeachment.  If violating the separation of powers isn't a "high crime" what is?

ml1 said:

STANV said:
 It is rather clear from the Mueller Report that trump is a criminal. If he cannot be impeached for his actions then I cannot imagine that any President could be impeached except for personally killing someone or taking an actual bribe.
The purpose of the Democrats was to make the report known to those who would rather watch TV than read.  Among such people there may actually be some so-called "swing voters". The "base" on either side will just have their views reinforced, but Trump is President by din of 77,000 votes. 
How many people watched the hearings?

it's this. If there's no impeachment then any future president can assume he or she can do anything with no accountability.  I'd be voting for impeachment based on just the fact that Trump decided to take funding for his wall wiIhout Congressional approval.  As far as I'm concerned any such blantant violation of the oath to uphold the Constitution by a POTUS should be grounds for impeachment.  If violating the separation of powers isn't a "high crime" what is?

A few suggestions:

Accelerating climate change

Provoking war with Iran

Lowering the threshold for using nuclear weapons

Ordering an economic war to overthrow a government and killing 40,000 Venezuelans in the process.

paulsurovell said:
A few suggestions:
Accelerating climate change
Provoking war with Iran
Lowering the threshold for using nuclear weapons
Ordering an economic war to overthrow a government and killing 40,000 Venezuelans in the process.

 a perfect recipe for utter political failure.

Morganna said:

conandrob240 said:
I think that accomplished absolutely nothing. It didn’t help, it didn’t hurt. So I’m back to my conclusion when the report came out that this is (and should be) done for now. Use the info to arrest him after he’s out. Don’t keep dragging this thing out- it makes Dems look bad. It’s done now- let’s focus on the election.

 So you are in the no impeachment column? I'm  leaning towards impeachment

Yes, I think I am. Not because I don’t think he deserves it but because I think it’ll weaken the democratic chance at the presidency (it’ll never be resolved by the next election and all it will be is a distraction that Trump can use against the Dems by saying it’s a witch-hunt, drain on resources, etc) I hope Trump,loses miserably and that when he is a civilian, they go after him and he goes to jail or better yet, Ivanka, Donny Jr and Jared go to jail and he lives with what he did to his family.

But, on the Mueller testimony, I don’t think it helped the Democratic case at all. If anything, I think it weakened it somewhat. Basically, I think it was a wash.

conandrob240 said:

But, on the Mueller testimony, I don’t think it helped the Democratic case at all. If anything, I think it weakened it somewhat. Basically, I think it was a wash.

 I am having difficulty following your reasoning. In answer to questions by Democrats Mueller said Trump helped "boosts"the Russians in their attacks on the Country, Trump engaged in conduct that if engaged in by someone other than the President would result in criminal prosecution and that Trump's answers to questions from the Special Prosecutor were not truthful.

The Democrats have to play those clips over and over and talk about them over and over.

They also have to talk about things like healthcare and climate change. 

They have to "walk and chew gum".

And I do not see one thing that came out today that was positive about Trump.

drummerboy said:

paulsurovell said:
A few suggestions:
Accelerating climate change
Provoking war with Iran
Lowering the threshold for using nuclear weapons
Ordering an economic war to overthrow a government and killing 40,000 Venezuelans in the process.

 a perfect recipe for utter political failure.

 Right. Throwing a tantrum is more important than existential threats and war crimes. Great priorities.

STANV said:

conandrob240 said:

But, on the Mueller testimony, I don’t think it helped the Democratic case at all. If anything, I think it weakened it somewhat. Basically, I think it was a wash.

 I am having difficulty following your reasoning. In answer to questions by Democrats Mueller said Trump helped "boosts"the Russians in their attacks on the Country, Trump engaged in conduct that if engaged in by someone other than the President would result in criminal prosecution and that Trump's answers to questions from the Special Prosecutor were not truthful.
The Democrats have to play those clips over and over and talk about them over and over.
They also have to talk about things like healthcare and climate change. 
They have to "walk and chew gum".


And I do not see one thing that came out today that was positive about Trump.

 Also, one of the reasons Trump didn't want to pursue Russian interference is that he felt that it undermined the legitimacy of his election.  It's always about Trump trying to protect his ego.  My fantasy is for Trump to be defeated soundly in 2020 to drive home the message that he was, is and will always be unworthy trash.

tjohn said:
 Also, one of the reasons Trump didn't want to pursue Russian interference is that he felt that it undermined the legitimacy of his election.  It's always about Trump trying to protect his ego.  My fantasy is for Trump to be defeated soundly in 2020 to drive home the message that he was, is and will always be unworthy trash.

I really hope it's not just fantasy. I fear the effects of a narrow defeat for Trump. I think he would muster every Executive power at his command to attempt to block the results of the election from being validated. And rave on every media source available about illegal voters and conspiracies. 

Let's face it - Trump will welcome Russian interference in our next election - he has done very little to deter them.  This is a no-brainer - do republicans or his followers care - some - but not a majority.

I agree with Schiff and Pelosi that they should have one or two more items in their arsenal before going full out on impeachment.  In my opinion this would involvement his finances, we need his taxes - period.  Everything Russia comes down to money - oligarchs want their money - Trump wants his tower - Putin wants control.  

If Trump was not president and obstructed in the manner in which he did- how much time would he be looking at?  I think 20 years was mentioned as a possible penalty for one of the obstruction charges.

guy seemed senile to me.  A puppet handpicked to be titular head of a phony investigation into literally nothing.

Is there parrot in the room?

oh I forgot.  they indicted Boris and Natasha in absentia for some petty bull*winkle*.  Congrats.

mrincredible said:
I really hope it's not just fantasy. I fear the effects of a narrow defeat for Trump. I think he would muster every Executive power at his command to attempt to block the results of the election from being validated. And rave on every media source available about illegal voters and conspiracies. 

 It won’t have to be a narrow victory, Trump will do this regardless of the margin if he loses.  It’s all he has, and it has worked for him for years.  

paulsurovell said:

drummerboy said:

paulsurovell said:
A few suggestions:
Accelerating climate change
Provoking war with Iran
Lowering the threshold for using nuclear weapons
Ordering an economic war to overthrow a government and killing 40,000 Venezuelans in the process.

 a perfect recipe for utter political failure.

 Right. Throwing a tantrum is more important than existential threats and war crimes. Great priorities.

 I believe it was a discussion of grounds for impeachment,

Almost all Republicans believed that the ACA would destroy healthcare in America.  They believed the Iran Treaty was a complete sell-out to a hostile Nation and represented an existential threat to  Israel. What if a the Republican House voted to impeach Obama for those things?

The best commentary I saw on the Mueller hearings was in a Washington Post opinion piece by by Dan Zak and Jada Yuan entitled, "A weary old man with a warning".

The beginning and end of the column are below.

the beginning:

As with many Washington sagas, it came down to this: an old man in a charcoal suit who didn’t want to talk. A former Marine just shy of his 75th birthday, dragged into serving his country one last time, though there’s little honor in it now. A hangdog Mona Lisa before a gallery of bobbleheads, subjected in the winter of a dignified career to the indignities of Congress. He had taken a bullet to the thigh in Vietnam, steered the FBI through the wreckage of the 9/11 attacks, and yet on Wednesday — during congressional hearings on his last act of public service — Robert Swan Mueller III seemed wary of the microphone itself.

and the end:

“Over the course of my career, I have seen a number of challenges to our democracy,” Mueller said. “The Russian government’s effort to interfere in our election is among the most serious. . . . This deserves the attention of every American.”

Would America pay attention to Mueller? This question was also outside his purview. But when asked by Rep. Peter Welch (D-Vt.) if the Trump campaign had normalized an openness to foreign interference in American elections, Mueller spoke directly into the microphone.

“I hope this is not the new normal,” he said, “but I fear it is.”

And this:

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/07/25/robert-mueller-hearing-was-awesome-227478

One of the many problems with Trump is that he wants to be the center of attention all of the time and his infantile White House reality T.V. shtick makes it very hard to grapple with real issues.  So, while history will vindicate Mueller, it might take some time.

STANV said:
And this:
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/07/25/robert-mueller-hearing-was-awesome-227478

 I liked this summation so I just shared it on my FB page. I was very disappointed in many of the reviews that I heard  on the news last night. I found it particularly sad that people were critiquing the delivery of a man that appears to be honorable and thoughtful and brave and intelligent. 4 traits that are not easy to find in one person.

STANV said:

conandrob240 said:

But, on the Mueller testimony, I don’t think it helped the Democratic case at all. If anything, I think it weakened it somewhat. Basically, I think it was a wash.

 I am having difficulty following your reasoning. In answer to questions by Democrats Mueller said Trump helped "boosts"the Russians in their attacks on the Country, Trump engaged in conduct that if engaged in by someone other than the President would result in criminal prosecution and that Trump's answers to questions from the Special Prosecutor were not truthful.
The Democrats have to play those clips over and over and talk about them over and over.
They also have to talk about things like healthcare and climate change. 
They have to "walk and chew gum".


And I do not see one thing that came out today that was positive about Trump.

No, nothing positive for Trump but nothing fully incriminating either. Not much new info that people didn’t have before. And it was delivered tentatively, ineffectively by Mueller who didn’t really say as much as he probably thinks. This isn’t a critique on mueller either- I think he’s a honorable man but in terms of convincing the undecided that trump should be impeached, not so much.

Red_Barchetta said:

mrincredible said:
I really hope it's not just fantasy. I fear the effects of a narrow defeat for Trump. I think he would muster every Executive power at his command to attempt to block the results of the election from being validated. And rave on every media source available about illegal voters and conspiracies. 

 It won’t have to be a narrow victory, Trump will do this regardless of the margin if he loses.  It’s all he has, and it has worked for him for years.  

 Sadly, I don’t think this is what we have to worry about.

Morganna said:

STANV said:
And this:
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/07/25/robert-mueller-hearing-was-awesome-227478

 I liked this summation so I just shared it on my FB page. I was very disappointed in many of the reviews that I heard  on the news last night. I found it particularly sad that people were critiquing the delivery of a man that appears to be honorable and thoughtful and brave and intelligent. 4 traits that are not easy to find in one person.

 The reality is that Mueller is an establishment hack who is promoting the "Russia attacked us" hoax, just as he promoted the Iraq WMD hoax when he was FBI Director:

https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4719428/mueller-testifies-iraqs-wmds

Mueller also obstructed the Congressional 911 investigation by refusing to allow an FBI informant who hosted two 911 hijackers testify despite a subpoena.

And there are other examples of his malfeasance as FBI director.

The mainstream media has been telling a scary Russian fairy tale for two-and-a-half years, and part of that scary fairy tale is the Bob-Mueller-is-our-hero-savior myth. Just like when the MSM teamed up with the Intel community in 2002-2003. Unfortunately too many Americans forget what was done to them then and foolishly trust the mainstream media and it's bogus Russiagate story unconditionally.

Paul,  There are many people not in your lunatic fringe world who 

1) aren't wildly upset about Russian interference but

2) think we need to take steps to protect our election machinery and

3) are legitimately concerned about the ways in which people educate themselves and affirm their biases in the internet age.  

paulsurovell said:
 The reality is that Mueller is an establishment hack who is promoting the "Russia attacked us" hoax,  

 And the reality is also that you are an anti establishment hack who is promoting the ‘Russia didn’t hack us’ hoax.   

So what?