Old Thread About Election Consequences

@nan I didn't personally attack you. Calling you a "stan" isn't an attack -- it's a description of people like you regarding Bernie and I clearly gave explanation of why I called you that. Kinda like if you enjoyed a variety of foods and had a passion for trying new foods, I'd call you a "foodie". And yes, HRC is a loser. She didn't win the presidency, which is what she wanted to win. However, she did "win" the popular vote against Trump. 

kibbegirl said:
@nan I didn't personally attack you. Calling you a "stan" isn't an attack -- it's a description of people like you regarding Bernie and I clearly gave explanation of why I called you that. Kinda like if you enjoyed a variety of foods and had a passion for trying new foods, I'd call you a "foodie". And yes, HRC is a loser. She didn't win the presidency, which is what she wanted to win. However, she did "win" the popular vote against Trump. 

 You did attack me because to you "Bernie" is clearly an insult and you made some very harsh judgements based on some caricature.  My political views are based on the policies I think we need in this country, not on a personality.  I think our system is broken and corrupt and not helping working people.  I think the Democrats, while better than the Republicans, are also corrupt and not on the side of the people.  I think it's horrible that we don't have the things other countries with less money than we have take for granted, like healthcare, and college and good public transportation. I don't understand why we are in 7 wars and spending so much money to interfere in other countries where we don't belong (to benefit oil companies).  Things just can't stay the same because it's unsustainable.  Hillary Clinton was not going to fix any of these problems.  Of course Trump is much worse and it's horrifying to see the things he does.  But, you have to understand that the system we are in makes people desperate enough and vulnerable to a Trump (dictator).  This is a well-known pattern.  I'm not sure anything can be done to turn things around, but just electing any Democrat is not going to assure that we don't get more Trump types elected in the following election. People are not going to get excited about Hillary 2.0--the slightly improved establishment candidate. That's why I support Progressive policies--because I think that we need major changes if we want to turn things around.  A lot of people think it is too late and that conventional voting will just lead to the status quo, but I guess I'm not as cynical as I'm made out to be.  

So if everyone voted.

https://www.facebook.com/RBReich/videos/2033343370011582/

@nan -- I'm not going to read all of that. Sorry.

kibbegirl said:
@nan -- I'm not going to read all of that. Sorry.

 Fine, but then stop responding to my posts.  Because you are just acting like a troll.

nan said:

kibbegirl said:
@nan -- I'm not going to read all of that. Sorry.

 Fine, but then stop responding to my posts.  Because you are just acting like a troll.

 I have reported the above, as it is far more egregious than anything you have allegedly reported on us. What's good for the troll is good to turn around.

Dennis_Seelbach said:

nan said:

kibbegirl said:
@nan -- I'm not going to read all of that. Sorry.

 Fine, but then stop responding to my posts.  Because you are just acting like a troll.

 I have reported the above, as it is far more egregious than anything you have allegedly reported on us. What's good for the troll is good to turn around.

 I did not call her a troll.  I said she was acting like a troll.   I assume you are seeking revenge for the personal attack you made today on a non-political thread. Those inappropriate posts were thankfully removed.  You were totally out of line to comment about my views on Hillary on a thread about a fallen tree.   What I am talking about here is based on a person who hurls insults at me, demands evidence and then refuses to read anything I write.  She seems to feel she can attack me and not let me defend myself.  That's acting like a troll.

Nan, 

First let me say how much I love you.  I certainly hope that I get to see you tomorrow!  As you know we are all going to try to get away from the daily drumbeat of ugliness that comes from the TV, the radio, and pretty much everything that comes out of the White House.

So what do you say that we just take a break from all the ugly for a couple of days.   It's time to celebrate something that makes our community very special and we all need to reflect on that for a bit I think.  

We are lucky to have Maplewoodstock.  Let's enjoy it.

Nan,

I am so happy you have taken up the anti-bullying course now. I am really looking forward for you to now speak out against your Great Leader, who bullied (incomplete list):
- disabled people
- women
- gold star parents
- mexicans
- the continent of Africa
- the free press
- war heroes
- and many, many more

Let's stand united against your Great Leader, our Bullier-In-Chief!

nan said:

Dennis_Seelbach said:

nan said:

kibbegirl said:
@nan -- I'm not going to read all of that. Sorry.

 Fine, but then stop responding to my posts.  Because you are just acting like a troll.

 I have reported the above, as it is far more egregious than anything you have allegedly reported on us. What's good for the troll is good to turn around.

 I did not call her a troll.  I said she was acting like a troll.   I assume you are seeking revenge for the personal attack you made today on a non-political thread. Those inappropriate posts were thankfully removed.  You were totally out of line to comment about my views on Hillary on a thread about a fallen tree.   What I am talking about here is based on a person who hurls insults at me, demands evidence and then refuses to read anything I write.  She seems to feel she can attack me and not let me defend myself.  That's acting like a troll.

sbenois said:
Nan, 
First let me say how much I love you.  I certainly hope that I get to see you tomorrow!  As you know we are all going to try to get away from the daily drumbeat of ugliness that comes from the TV, the radio, and pretty much everything that comes out of the White House.


So what do you say that we just take a break from all the ugly for a couple of days.   It's time to celebrate something that makes our community very special and we all need to reflect on that for a bit I think.  


We are lucky to have Maplewoodstock.  Let's enjoy it.

Peace Out!   See you at MW! 

gerritin -- 

Why you think I support Trump in any way?   I think he's horrible and terrifying and the biggest bully of all.  HIs election is a devastating blow to whatever Democracy we had left. I just don't agree that the way to get rid of Trump and all future potential Trumps is to yell at people who who might have voted for him or someone else.  Shaming people with no money and/or no power, while letting the corrupt group that really got him elected off the hook seems futile; especially when that group continues to use that same losing strategy going forward.  We need to stand up to the people who actually have power and demand that they start representing us instead of the donors that pay them.  Then they actually could campaign on a platform that would get people excited about voting. If you get people excited about a candidate, they will get off the couch and vote. People complain about the Green Party, but they have a terrific, exciting platform that is pro-working people and anti-war.

If the Democrats adopted the Green Party Platform, they would win and there would there would no longer be a Green Party to complain about.  But why don't they do that? Take a guess.  If you improve the horrible living conditions of the people who live in the richest country in the world (which were horrible before Trump got elected -- he did not spring from nothing), people will be less likely to vote for a dictator.  I hope you can understand what I am saying here.  I don't speak out much about Trump's atrocities, because everyone else is doing that 24/7.  Instead, I would rather focus on how we got Trump in the first place, so we can avoid having him for 8 years.  Right, now I'd say, based on what I see the Democrats doing, that he has a pretty good chance of winning.  The "Resistance" is more like a McResistance.

gerritn said:
Nan,
I am so happy you have taken up the anti-bullying course now. I am really looking forward for you to now speak out against your Great Leader, who bullied (incomplete list):
- disabled people
- women
- gold star parents
- mexicans
- the continent of Africa
- the free press
- war heroes
- and many, many more

Let's stand united against your Great Leader, our Bullier-In-Chief!

nan said:
gerritin -- 
Why you think I support Trump in any way?   I think he's horrible and terrifying and the biggest bully of all.  HIs election is a devastating blow to whatever Democracy we had left. 
.
If the Democrats adopted the Green Party Platform, they would win and there would there would no longer be a Green Party to complain about. 

Everyone knows that Nan hates Trump.

Nan, it's just that you spend more time attacking the Democrats than you spend attacking Trump. It's always been a problem with "The Left" which is why there is hardly any Left left. Each group spends its time attacking the group closest to it. There was an article about how the Democratic Socialists are not supporting Cynthia Nixon in which one member was practically cursing the Working Families Party.

If you are correct about the Dems winning by adopting the Green Party Platform why doesn't that Party win or at least do a lot better than it does? Perhaps one of the reasons is a lack of money. That is one reason the Dem "Establishment" caters to its donars.

In ancient Greece,  the Olympics were held every four years.  It was a time when warring city/states

put aside their differences and the best of the best competed for fame and fortune.

I believe Mr.Sbenois made the same appeal for these the days of Maplewoodstock to serve as a time of peace.  Let's make it work.

LOST said:

nan said:
gerritin -- 
Why you think I support Trump in any way?   I think he's horrible and terrifying and the biggest bully of all.  HIs election is a devastating blow to whatever Democracy we had left. 
.
If the Democrats adopted the Green Party Platform, they would win and there would there would no longer be a Green Party to complain about. 

Everyone knows that Nan hates Trump.
Nan, it's just that you spend more time attacking the Democrats than you spend attacking Trump. It's always been a problem with "The Left" which is why there is hardly any Left left. Each group spends its time attacking the group closest to it. There was an article about how the Democratic Socialists are not supporting Cynthia Nixon in which one member was practically cursing the Working Families Party.
If you are correct about the Dems winning by adopting the Green Party Platform why doesn't that Party win or at least do a lot better than it does? Perhaps one of the reasons is a lack of money. That is one reason the Dem "Establishment" caters to its donars.

 Author  - I will be over to peace,love and understanding a bit later.  Had to stay home to wait for the water meter guy.  

Lost --

I don't need to spend time attacking Trump.  There are already lots of people doing that and I don't have much to add except when the "Resistance" attacks him from the right instead of the left. 

As for attacking the Democrats we all should be doing that.  Really, I don't get how you are OK with people who demand your vote and then don't represent you.  I don't know how you are OK with a group that lost to a psycho orange reality TV star degenerate and then refuse to change their strategy for the next round.  They are the ones demanding unity and voter shaming because that's all they have left.  Yes, they cater to their donors because of the money.  That's obvious.  But, that is not acceptable because it leads to extreme economic inequality for working people. And then we end up with Trump.

The reasons for the Green Party not getting votes are not just money.  They get zero publicity or mention on the media.   They are prevented from participating in debates. Also, people are relentlessly vilified for even thinking of voting for them--check out MOL for an example. I bet a lot of people who scream about the Green Party have never even checked out what they endorse, which is  social justice, environmentalism and nonviolence--things we really, really need.  Some of their ideas, such as Medicare for All or free college (and cancelling all student debt) made Bernie Sanders very popular.  Some of these policies are shown to be popular even for Republicans. Other countries are not stuck with only two parties to choose from and maybe we need to be more open to that.

nan said:

LOST said:

nan said:
gerritin -- 
Why you think I support Trump in any way?   I think he's horrible and terrifying and the biggest bully of all.  HIs election is a devastating blow to whatever Democracy we had left. 
.
If the Democrats adopted the Green Party Platform, they would win and there would there would no longer be a Green Party to complain about. 

Everyone knows that Nan hates Trump.
Nan, it's just that you spend more time attacking the Democrats than you spend attacking Trump. It's always been a problem with "The Left" which is why there is hardly any Left left. Each group spends its time attacking the group closest to it. There was an article about how the Democratic Socialists are not supporting Cynthia Nixon in which one member was practically cursing the Working Families Party.
If you are correct about the Dems winning by adopting the Green Party Platform why doesn't that Party win or at least do a lot better than it does? Perhaps one of the reasons is a lack of money. That is one reason the Dem "Establishment" caters to its donars.

 Author  - I will be over to peace,love and understanding a bit later.  Had to stay home to wait for the water meter guy.  
Lost --
I don't need to spend time attacking Trump.  There are already lots of people doing that and I don't have much to add except when the "Resistance" attacks him from the right instead of the left. 
As for attacking the Democrats we all should be doing that.  Really, I don't get how you are OK with people who demand your vote and then don't represent you.  I don't know how you are OK with a group that lost to a psycho orange reality TV star degenerate and then refuse to change their strategy for the next round.  They are the ones demanding unity and voter shaming because that's all they have left.  Yes, they cater to their donors because of the money.  That's obvious.  But, that is not acceptable because it leads to extreme economic inequality for working people. And then we end up with Trump.
The reasons for the Green Party not getting votes are not just money.  They get zero publicity or mention on the media.   They are prevented from participating in debates. Also, people are relentlessly vilified for even thinking of voting for them--check out MOL for an example. I bet a lot of people who scream about the Green Party have never even checked out what they endorse, which is  social justice, environmentalism and nonviolence--things we really, really need.  Some of their ideas, such as Medicare for All or free college (and cancelling all student debt) made Bernie Sanders very popular.  Some of these policies are shown to be popular even for Republicans. Other countries are not stuck with only two parties to choose from and maybe we need to be more open to that.

 Nan.....at a time long ago.......and certainly not a galaxy far, far away.......when we took to the streets in genuine anger.....the cry was peace, freedom, love and revolution.

Those who were held up by waiting for the water meter guy had to work the mimeograph machine for a week.

nan said:

LOST said:

nan said:
gerritin -- 
Why you think I support Trump in any way?   I think he's horrible and terrifying and the biggest bully of all.  HIs election is a devastating blow to whatever Democracy we had left. 
.
If the Democrats adopted the Green Party Platform, they would win and there would there would no longer be a Green Party to complain about. 

Everyone knows that Nan hates Trump.
Nan, it's just that you spend more time attacking the Democrats than you spend attacking Trump. It's always been a problem with "The Left" which is why there is hardly any Left left. Each group spends its time attacking the group closest to it. There was an article about how the Democratic Socialists are not supporting Cynthia Nixon in which one member was practically cursing the Working Families Party.
If you are correct about the Dems winning by adopting the Green Party Platform why doesn't that Party win or at least do a lot better than it does? Perhaps one of the reasons is a lack of money. That is one reason the Dem "Establishment" caters to its donars.

 Author  - I will be over to peace,love and understanding a bit later.  Had to stay home to wait for the water meter guy.  
Lost --
I don't need to spend time attacking Trump.  There are already lots of people doing that and I don't have much to add except when the "Resistance" attacks him from the right instead of the left. 
As for attacking the Democrats we all should be doing that.  Really, I don't get how you are OK with people who demand your vote and then don't represent you.  I don't know how you are OK with a group that lost to a psycho orange reality TV star degenerate and then refuse to change their strategy for the next round.  They are the ones demanding unity and voter shaming because that's all they have left.  Yes, they cater to their donors because of the money.  That's obvious.  But, that is not acceptable because it leads to extreme economic inequality for working people. And then we end up with Trump.
The reasons for the Green Party not getting votes are not just money.  They get zero publicity or mention on the media.   They are prevented from participating in debates. Also, people are relentlessly vilified for even thinking of voting for them--check out MOL for an example. I bet a lot of people who scream about the Green Party have never even checked out what they endorse, which is  social justice, environmentalism and nonviolence--things we really, really need.  Some of their ideas, such as Medicare for All or free college (and cancelling all student debt) made Bernie Sanders very popular.  Some of these policies are shown to be popular even for Republicans. Other countries are not stuck with only two parties to choose from and maybe we need to be more open to that.

 I have always supported the Green Party's mention of the ethical treatment of animals as part of their platform. It is more conservative than the aims of animal rights activists like myself but I keep an eye on them and their candidates.  I'd be interested to see a candidate who had the charisma of Ms. Ocasio - Cortez. For me, Jill Stein didn't have it.

author said:

nan said:

LOST said:

nan said:

 Author  - I will be over to peace,love and understanding a bit later.  Had to stay home to wait for the water meter guy.  
Lost --
I don't need to spend time attacking Trump.  There are already lots of people doing that and I don't have 

 Nan.....at a time long ago.......and certainly not a galaxy far, far away.......when we took to the streets in genuine anger.....the cry was peace, freedom, love and revolution.
Those who were held up by waiting for the water meter guy had to work the mimeograph machine for a week.

 Author - I had 10 days to let the water meter guy in or they were going to shut off my water.  It was a (friendly) stand-off.  I was sort of held hostage by the water company.  No one was coming to my rescue.  Anyway, he's gone and I'm just sitting here in the air conditioning and thinking about heading over to MW.  

Morganna said:

 I have always supported the Green Party's mention of the ethical treatment of animals as part of their platform. It is more conservative than the aims of animal rights activists like myself but I keep an eye on them and their candidates.  I'd be interested to see a candidate who had the charisma of Ms. Ocasio - Cortez. For me, Jill Stein didn't have it.

 I did not know about the treatment of animals, but I would like to see that in a platform. That's a good point and rarely brought up.  I'm not much for voting for charisma though.  That can be deceiving and has gotten us into lots of trouble before.  I look at the platform in detail and then try to see if they actually believe in what they are saying and how they say they are going to do it.  I also try to see who funds them and how they vote on issues related to that funding. I try to avoid the cult of the personality.  It is a plus if they are attractive and charming though, but I'm not going to date or reproduce with them so it's of little use to me.  

nan said:


I don't need to spend time attacking Trump.  There are already lots of people doing that and I don't have much to add except when the "Resistance" attacks him from the right instead of the left. 
.

 Hope the water meter person has come and gone and you can go to Maplewoodstock and say "Hi" to sbenois. I think I saw him there.

I cannot fathom "The Resistance" attacking Trump from the Right. So I do not know what you mean.

nan said:

  
As for attacking the Democrats we all should be doing that.  Really, I don't get how you are OK with people who demand your vote and then don't represent you. 

 I learned politics from my involvement with those Democrats who were waging Primary fights against the Party Establishment a long time ago, starting when I was in High School. Later I refused to vote for the Democratic Party because they were not "Left" enough, but eventually I made peace with the Two-Party system. Now I usually support the more progressive choice, if I have a choice. 

nan said:

The reasons for the Green Party not getting votes are not just money.  They get zero publicity or mention on the media.   They are prevented from participating in debates. 

 If they had a lot more money they could buy a lot more publicity. Of course that is not the point. They exist to drive the conversation in a more progressive direction and I join you in hoping the Democratic Party adopts some of their positions.

By the way I think that some of the criticism of the Green Party by the Working Families Party is that the Greens seem to concentrate on running candidates at the top, for President or Governor, instead of working at the grass roots. But that is a different discussion.

nan said:

  It is a plus if they are attractive and charming though, but I'm not going to date or reproduce with them so it's of little use to me.  

 One never knows what the future holds.  

nan said:

Morganna said:

 I have always supported the Green Party's mention of the ethical treatment of animals as part of their platform. It is more conservative than the aims of animal rights activists like myself but I keep an eye on them and their candidates.  I'd be interested to see a candidate who had the charisma of Ms. Ocasio - Cortez. For me, Jill Stein didn't have it.

 I did not know about the treatment of animals, but I would like to see that in a platform. That's a good point and rarely brought up.  I'm not much for voting for charisma though.  That can be deceiving and has gotten us into lots of trouble before.  I look at the platform in detail and then try to see if they actually believe in what they are saying and how they say they are going to do it.  I also try to see who funds them and how they vote on issues related to that funding. I try to avoid the cult of the personality.  It is a plus if they are attractive and charming though, but I'm not going to date or reproduce with them so it's of little use to me.  

 Yes, charisma is not the thing that makes me pull the lever, but I think it would help get the message out. Here's the link for anyone who wishes to do a bit of research. http://www.gp.org/

Had a great time at Maplewoodstock!   Came home and saw this:

nan said:
Had a great time at Maplewoodstock!   Came home and saw this:

“We are currently in the middle of a multyear fight over what sort of candidates the Democratic Party should be running,” the video begins, “and what sort of presidential candidate could actually win in 2020 against Donald Trump. And now we can add to that fight a little bit of new data coming out of a survey done by YouGov.” It then says the question asked, “Do you want a candidate that is more like Bernie Sanders or less like Bernie Sanders?” and notes that 57 percent of Democrats who were polled said more like.

Only later does the video acknowledge that the question was about congressional candidates in general, not “a candidate” running for president, and the parts I watched never pointed out that among all voters polled, “less like” beat “more like” by 38% to 33%. 

So despite the pitch, it’s not really data to add about “what sort of presidential candidate could actually win in 2020 against Donald Trump.”

Dave Schmidt,

Do you think people want a radically different candidate for president than they want for Congress?

nan said:
Dave Schmidt,
Do you think people want a radically different candidate for president than they want for Congress?

“Radically” is a complicating modifier, so, no, maybe not radically different. Do I think the kind of candidate a voter wants to see in the White House and the kind a voter wants to see representing a House district are two separate questions that should not be conflated in the opening remarks of an honest video discussion? Yes.

Anybody think Elizabeth Warren will run? Could she win?

Morganna said:
Anybody think Elizabeth Warren will run? Could she win?

 No and No.

DaveSchmidt said:

nan said:
Dave Schmidt,
Do you think people want a radically different candidate for president than they want for Congress?

“Radically” is a complicating modifier, so, no, maybe not radically different. Do I think the kind of candidate a voter wants to see in the White House and the kind a voter wants to see representing a House district are two separate questions that should not be conflated in the opening remarks of an honest video discussion? Yes.

 Why would they want someone different for one than the other?  Don't get it.

Dennis_Seelbach said:

Morganna said:
Anybody think Elizabeth Warren will run? Could she win?

 No and No.

 She might, and she could win.  She would not be my favorite Progressive because she is only progressive sometimes, but she is better than Cory Booker or Kamala Harris or Kristen Guileband. They are all Hillary 2.0, although they pretend to hold progressive positions.  

nan said:

Why would they want someone different for one than the other?  Don't get it.

The jobs are somewhat different.