Inspector General Review of the Trump/Russia Investigation

jamie said:

nohero said:

 What Paul has written is misleading.  The example of his most tiresome misleading is the "Hillary paid for the fake Dossier", which has been hashed and rehashed in the "Hillary Colluded" thread so won't be re-rehashed here.

It's Paul's version of "Lock her up" - it's not a paul thread (rally) until he utters that line.  It truly unites trumpers and the alt-left crowd.

 So, who paid for the dossier?

love it - paul provides a 476 page source written by a trump appointed official and thinks its the bible.  lol

What the IG report and the dossier provide is the fact the Manafort was a huge red flag in the Trump campaign.  The fact that he was running the campaign at all was more then justification for people to be concerned about trump.

You guys are trying to say that hillary hired a fiction writer.  To this day - no one can name one time where Steele misled our intelligence.  Hillary didn't even release the Steele Dossier.  And they continued to do research on their own dime - after the election and after hillary cut ties with them.

nan said:

 So, who paid for the dossier?

 THIS IS TRUMP TALKING POINT #1 - Maybe Jimmy Dore as well.  So sad to see the Bernieites constantly using it.

nohero said:

paulsurovell said:

You seem to be denying that what I wrote is true.

This is a good opportunity for you and the prove-one-thing-that-Paul-said-that-was-untrue crowd to work on.

Here's my source:

https://apps.npr.org/documents/document.html?id=6571534-OIG-Russia-Investigation-Report

 What Paul has written is misleading.  The example of his most tiresome misleading is the "Hillary paid for the fake Dossier", which has been hashed and rehashed in the "Hillary Colluded" thread so won't be re-rehashed here.

 Are you denying that:

Hillary for America paid for the dossier

or

that the dossier was fake

or both?

jamie said:

nohero said:

 What Paul has written is misleading.  The example of his most tiresome misleading is the "Hillary paid for the fake Dossier", which has been hashed and rehashed in the "Hillary Colluded" thread so won't be re-rehashed here.

It's Paul's version of "Lock her up" - it's not a paul thread (rally) until he utters that line.  It truly unites trumpers and the alt-left crowd.

That's not a good canard to bring up.  It's a reminder of the insanity of Russiagate. Here's the text of Russiagate cheerleader Maxine Waters declaring that Putin gave Trump the ideas to say "Lock her up" and "Crooked Hillary".

Russiagate in a nutshell.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2017/05/19/rep_maxine_waters_crooked_hillary_and_lock_her_up_memes_were_developed_by_putin.html

nohero said:

paulsurovell said:

You seem to be denying that what I wrote is true.

This is a good opportunity for you and the prove-one-thing-that-Paul-said-that-was-untrue crowd to work on.

Here's my source:

https://apps.npr.org/documents/document.html?id=6571534-OIG-Russia-Investigation-Report

 What Paul has written is misleading.  The example of his most tiresome misleading is the "Hillary paid for the fake Dossier", which has been hashed and rehashed in the "Hillary Colluded" thread so won't be re-rehashed here.

 @nohero rebuttal:

"It's misleading and tiresome!"

jamie said:

love it - paul provides a 476 page source written by a trump appointed official and thinks its the bible.  lol

Horowitz was appointed by Obama. You should revise your comments accordingly.

What the IG report and the dossier provide is the fact the Manafort was a huge red flag in the Trump campaign. The fact that he was running the campaign at all was more then justification for people to be concerned about trump.

The dossier said Manafort was the manager of a conspiracy between the Russian government and the Trump campaign, which both Mueller and Horowitz confirmed as a Big Lie.

You guys are trying to say that hillary hired a fiction writer.

The dossier is a work of fiction

To this day - no one can name one time where Steele misled our intelligence.

He misled our intelligence by providing them with his false reports.

Hillary didn't even release the Steele Dossier

Steele shopped it to numerous MSM journalists and Isikoff and Corn wrote stories about it. That's how it got released during the election.

And they continued to do research on their own dime - after the election and after hillary cut
ties with them.

And the corrupt FBI continued to use their work, despite knowing it was false.

Simpson has refused to talk to Horowitz. Why?

jamie said:

nan said:

 So, who paid for the dossier?

 THIS IS TRUMP TALKING POINT #1 - Maybe Jimmy Dore as well.  So sad to see the Bernieites constantly using it.

If Trump says something true, does that make it untrue?

paulsurovell said:

nohero said:

 What Paul has written is misleading.  The example of his most tiresome misleading is the "Hillary paid for the fake Dossier", which has been hashed and rehashed in the "Hillary Colluded" thread so won't be re-rehashed here.

 @nohero rebuttal:

"It's misleading and tiresome!"

Thank you for this latest example of your approach to these discussions.

It's technically true that the words "misleading" and "tiresome" are in the rebuttal I wrote.

But your summary is completely misleading and ignores the actual meaning, the actual facts, of what was written.  For example, it completely ignores the point that you've already seen the more detailed responses, you know what they are, but are "arguing" as if they don't exist.  

And that's how the words "misleading" and "tiresome" are sufficient as a response. 

paulsurovell said:

jamie said:

It's Paul's version of "Lock her up" - it's not a paul thread (rally) until he utters that line.  It truly unites trumpers and the alt-left crowd.

That's not a good canard to bring up.  It's a reminder of the insanity of Russiagate. Here's the text of Russiagate cheerleader Maxine Waters declaring that Putin gave Trump the ideas to say "Lock her up" and "Crooked Hillary".

Russiagate in a nutshell.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2017/05/19/rep_maxine_waters_crooked_hillary_and_lock_her_up_memes_were_developed_by_putin.html

There was no reason to bring up Rep. Waters in the context of this discussion.  It seems that Rep. Waters, and something she said once, is often cited by Paul and others opposed to investigating Trump/Russia.  

There's something about Rep. Waters that makes them use her as the face of the call to investigate Trump.  Almost as much as Rep. Green was cited during the impeachment debate.

Other than being the reason that a FISA warrant was sought for Carter Page, what was the significance of the dossier?  The Mueller Report barely mentions it.  The dossier wasn't the reason for the launch of Operation Hurricane. It wasn't the reason for the Mueller investigation. No charges were brought against Carter Page. No charges were brought against others because of the dossier. 

The DNC and Clinton campaign didn't even know that Fusion GPS or Steele had been hired by the Perkins Coie law firm. Yes, it is true that they indirectly paid for the dossier, since they paid Perkins Coie who in turn paid Fusion GPS who then paid Steele, but they weren't aware that Perkins Coie had hired Fusion GPS or that Fusion GPS hired Steele. No one has been able to show otherwise. Trump and the Republicans would like people to believe that the DNC and Clinton campaign hired Fusion GPS and Steele directly and told them to come up with anything they could, regardless of the validity, to smear Trump. Fwiw, Fusion GPS approached Perkins Coie.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/24/us/politics/clinton-dnc-russia-dossier.html

six degrees of separation are good enough for some people

paulsurovell said:

jamie said:

love it - paul provides a 476 page source written by a trump appointed official and thinks its the bible.  lol

Horowitz was appointed by Obama. You should revise your comments accordingly.

What the IG report and the dossier provide is the fact the Manafort was a huge red flag in the Trump campaign. The fact that he was running the campaign at all was more then justification for people to be concerned about trump.

The dossier said Manafort was the manager of a conspiracy between the Russian government and the Trump campaign, which both Mueller and Horowitz confirmed as a Big Lie.

You guys are trying to say that hillary hired a fiction writer.

The dossier is a work of fiction

To this day - no one can name one time where Steele misled our intelligence.

He misled our intelligence by providing them with his false reports.

Hillary didn't even release the Steele Dossier

Steele shopped it to numerous MSM journalists and Isikoff and Corn wrote stories about it. That's how it got released during the election.

And they continued to do research on their own dime - after the election and after hillary cut
ties with them.

And the corrupt FBI continued to use their work, despite knowing it was false.

Simpson has refused to talk to Horowitz. Why?

 Do you think Steele and fusion were faking how disturbed they were with their findings.  Even with the pee tape - Horowitz claimed Steele's subsource was wrong - but steele always claimed at least 7 subsources for that claim.  How did horowitz choose the subsource?  Had this been Hillary - you would be pointing out her biggest lie if she had said - she didn't stay over night in Moscow at that time.  Trump did- why would he lie about that?

You and others like to use the Prague story as your smoking gun of falsity - but you don't admit the cohen was exploring the Moscow deal many months later then previously testified to.

I'm glad you didn't admit to Hillary releasing the report.  Steele was not happy with how it was released.  He and fusion were frustrated that their findings went nowhere.  It was mostly after they were in John McCain's hands did they get more attention.  McCain passed the dossier to Comey - not Hillary.

Steele has always been a solid lead in Russia investigations - there has been no proof where he has produced bad intelligence in the past.

nohero said:

paulsurovell said:

nohero said:

 What Paul has written is misleading.  The example of his most tiresome misleading is the "Hillary paid for the fake Dossier", which has been hashed and rehashed in the "Hillary Colluded" thread so won't be re-rehashed here.

 @nohero rebuttal:

"It's misleading and tiresome!"

Thank you for this latest example of your approach to these discussions.

It's technically true that the words "misleading" and "tiresome" are in the rebuttal I wrote.

But your summary is completely misleading and ignores the actual meaning, the actual facts, of what was written.  For example, it completely ignores the point that you've already seen the more detailed responses, you know what they are, but are "arguing" as if they don't exist.  

And that's how the words "misleading" and "tiresome" are sufficient as a response. 

Here, this might help:

Folks involved in funding this lied about it, and with sanctimony, for a year https://t.co/vXKRV1wRJc
— Maggie Haberman (@maggieNYT) October 24, 2017
 

nohero said:

paulsurovell said:

jamie said:

It's Paul's version of "Lock her up" - it's not a paul thread (rally) until he utters that line.  It truly unites trumpers and the alt-left crowd.

That's not a good canard to bring up.  It's a reminder of the insanity of Russiagate. Here's the text of Russiagate cheerleader Maxine Waters declaring that Putin gave Trump the ideas to say "Lock her up" and "Crooked Hillary".

Russiagate in a nutshell.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2017/05/19/rep_maxine_waters_crooked_hillary_and_lock_her_up_memes_were_developed_by_putin.html

There was no reason to bring up Rep. Waters in the context of this discussion.  It seems that Rep. Waters, and something she said once, is often cited by Paul and others opposed to investigating Trump/Russia.  

There's something about Rep. Waters that makes them use her as the face of the call to investigate Trump.  Almost as much as Rep. Green was cited during the impeachment debate.

 Rep. Waters's statement personifies the Russiagate narrative.

And what's telling is that even though it's clinically insane, Russiagate defenders -- like you -- can't bring yourselves to admit that it's crazy, because Russiagate is about never having to admit that you're wrong -- even when it's screaming in your face.

cramer said:

The DNC and Clinton campaign didn't even know that Fusion GPS or Steele had been hired by the Perkins Coie law firm. Yes, it is true that they indirectly paid for the dossier, since they paid Perkins Coie who in turn paid Fusion GPS who then paid Steele, but they weren't aware that Perkins Coie had hired Fusion GPS or that Fusion GPS hired Steele. No one has been able to show otherwise. Trump and the Republicans would like people to believe that the DNC and Clinton campaign hired Fusion GPS and Steele directly and told them to come up with anything they could, regardless of the validity, to smear Trump. Fwiw, Fusion GPS approached Perkins Coie.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/24/us/politics/clinton-dnc-russia-dossier.html

From the Horowitz report p. 94

We asked Steele when he learned who had retained Fusion GPS to obtain
information concerning Trump and the Trump campaign. He told us he could not
recall when he first learned that it was the law firm Perkins Coie and the
Democratic National Committee (DNC), though he was certain that it was not at the
outset of the engagement with Fusion GPS. Steele further stated that, by late July
2016, Steele had met with Simpson and an attorney from Perkins Coie, which
represented the DNC, and Steele said that by that time he was aware of the DNC's
role. He stated that he could not remember whether he provided Perkins Coie's
name to the FBI but believed it was probable that he did so, but not in July 2016.

From the House Intelligence Committee

Report on Russian
Active Measures
March 22, 2018

Elias* recalled personally being briefed by
Steele on his findings during a late
September or early October meeting at [Redacted]
office and formed the impression that ''the Fusion
folks thought it important that Mr.
Steele hear from me directly that I was
aware of his work and was appreciative."ftn 317
The Committee requested [Redacted]
records related to this meeting, but the firm
was not able- to locate any ftn.315

(U) [Redacted]. led regular briefings that
contained Steele's In formation for senior
Clinton campaign staff, which included
Clinton campaign manager and
campaign chairman John Podesta. ftn319
[Redacted] also began "relaying ... information
received from Fusion GPS to the DNC . ..
around . .. convention time." ftn320

* Marc E. Elias is an attorney with the law firm Perkins Coie who represented the Clinton campaign and the DNC

jamie said:

paulsurovell said:

jamie said:

love it - paul provides a 476 page source written by a trump appointed official and thinks its the bible.  lol

Horowitz was appointed by Obama. You should revise your comments accordingly.

What the IG report and the dossier provide is the fact the Manafort was a huge red flag in the Trump campaign. The fact that he was running the campaign at all was more then justification for people to be concerned about trump.

The dossier said Manafort was the manager of a conspiracy between the Russian government and the Trump campaign, which both Mueller and Horowitz confirmed as a Big Lie.

You guys are trying to say that hillary hired a fiction writer.

The dossier is a work of fiction

To this day - no one can name one time where Steele misled our intelligence.

He misled our intelligence by providing them with his false reports.

Hillary didn't even release the Steele Dossier

Steele shopped it to numerous MSM journalists and Isikoff and Corn wrote stories about it. That's how it got released during the election.

And they continued to do research on their own dime - after the election and after hillary cut
ties with them.

And the corrupt FBI continued to use their work, despite knowing it was false.

Simpson has refused to talk to Horowitz. Why?

 Do you think Steele and fusion were faking how disturbed they were with their findings.  Even with the pee tape - Horowitz claimed Steele's subsource was wrong - but steele always claimed at least 7 subsources for that claim.  How did horowitz choose the subsource?  Had this been Hillary - you would be pointing out her biggest lie if she had said - she didn't stay over night in Moscow at that time.  Trump did- why would he lie about that?

You and others like to use the Prague story as your smoking gun of falsity - but you don't admit the cohen was exploring the Moscow deal many months later then previously testified to.

I'm glad you didn't admit to Hillary releasing the report.  Steele was not happy with how it was released.  He and fusion were frustrated that their findings went nowhere.  It was mostly after they were in John McCain's hands did they get more attention.  McCain passed the dossier to Comey - not Hillary.

Steele has always been a solid lead in Russia investigations - there has been no proof where he has produced bad intelligence in the past.

We don't know whether Steele and Simpson were putting out false inflammatory allegations because they were "alarmed" or that they put out the false and inflammatory allegations because they wanted to alarm others, especially since they were being paid to produce a product that would discredit Trump.

On Cohen, I've never denied that he was seeking a deal that never happened. Steele said he was in Prague to pay off Russian hackers -- a total fabrication.

On Steele's "solid" reputation, Horowitz reports that Steele's reputation among his former intelligence colleagues was mixed, reporting (p.258)

Steele's past contacts said he "could be prone to rash judgments"

paulsurovell said:

Here, this might help:

 Maybe the fact that it’s two years old will prompt Paul’s memory about how it’s been already discussed to death. 

nohero said:

paulsurovell said:

Here, this might help:

 Maybe the fact that it’s two years old will prompt Paul’s memory about how it’s been already discussed to death. 

cramer said:

Other than being the reason that a FISA warrant was sought for Carter Page, what was the significance of the dossier?  The Mueller Report barely mentions it.  The dossier wasn't the reason for the launch of Operation Hurricane. It wasn't the reason for the Mueller investigation. No charges were brought against Carter Page. No charges were brought against others because of the dossier. 

For all of the publicity about the Steele dossier, it really wasn't that important to the Mueller investigation. 

A total take-down of Rachel Maddow and her dishonest coverage of the Steele dossier. The same applies to everything else she's reported on Russiagate.

Here's a window into how the mainstream media promotes a hoax and convinces its audience that it's true:

Time for self-reflection, folks.

Rachel Maddow rooted for the Steele dossier. Then it fell apart. https://t.co/bfg7cGBSrD
— ErikWemple (@ErikWemple) December 26, 2019
 

and again - how many people on here a quoting Maddow on a regular basis - please link to the posts - you seem to be the one with the Maddow obsession.  

In all of this controversy - I think the Mifsud mystery is one of the most bizarre unanswered aspects of it.  Who wanted this guy to go missing the most?  I highly doubt he was solely a western intelligence agent as told by his lawyer.

Might be good to start a mifsud thread.

jamie said:

and again - how many people on here a quoting Maddow on a regular basis - please link to the posts - you seem to be the one with the Maddow obsession.  

Over three years, how many times would you guess the term “Steele dossier” has appeared in the NYT’s news report? About 60, or less than twice a month, according to the Times Archive. And if any mentions treat the dossier credulously, they are exceptions.

Note, too, which branch of the media the Maddow takedown appeared in.

In non-coronavirus news:

Problems with FBI surveillance extended far beyond probe of Trump campaign, Justice Dept. inspector general says

I can't remember which thread or threads, this was in, but I recall folks noting how the report debunked Trump's claim of a "witch hunt" and expressing the hope that the IG report might lead to broader reforms of the FISA process. Jury's still out on those broader reforms, but the idea that Trump was being politically targeted takes another hit here:

Trump has long decried the FBI investigation of him and his campaign’s contacts with Russians as a politically motivated “witch hunt” aimed at wrecking his candidacy and his presidency, and he and his supporters are likely to embrace the new revelations as further evidence of wrongdoing among former FBI leaders.

Tuesday’s findings suggest, however, that the bureau may be suffering instead from broad, institutional weaknesses more than political bias, as problems were found in an array of cases managed by FBI field offices around the country.

FISA has been a sh!t show for many many years. Any system that has about a 100% acceptance rate when they appear before a panel of judges has gotta be a bit hinky.

PVW said:

In non-coronavirus news:

Problems with FBI surveillance extended far beyond probe of Trump campaign, Justice Dept. inspector general says

I can't remember which thread or threads, this was in, but I recall folks noting how the report debunked Trump's claim of a "witch hunt" and expressing the hope that the IG report might lead to broader reforms of the FISA process. Jury's still out on those broader reforms, but the idea that Trump was being politically targeted takes another hit here:

Trump has long decried the FBI investigation of him and his campaign’s contacts with Russians as a politically motivated “witch hunt” aimed at wrecking his candidacy and his presidency, and he and his supporters are likely to embrace the new revelations as further evidence of wrongdoing among former FBI leaders.

Tuesday’s findings suggest, however, that the bureau may be suffering instead from broad, institutional weaknesses more than political bias, as problems were found in an array of cases managed by FBI field offices around the country.

 But Devin Nunes told us that he had proof it was an FBI "witch hunt" by the "Deep State", and he's the smartest Congressman ever.  

Right?

"Rep. Devin Nunes said Tuesday that California's decision to cancel the remainder of its school year was 'way overkill,' again diminishing the threat posed by the coronavirus pandemic in a primetime television appearance." 

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/01/nunes-canceling-school-year-overkill-158930