Inspector General Review of the Trump/Russia Investigation

nohero said:

paulsurovell said:

nohero said:

DaveSchmidt said:

I note, below, the assessment’s reference to the NSA’s moderate confidence. It’s untrue that the passage is about Russian hacking of the DNC.

Then again, maybe I didn’t read carefully enough.

We also assess Putin and the Russian Government aspired to help President-elect Trump’s election chances when possible by discrediting Secretary Clinton and publicly contrasting her unfavorably to him. All three agencies agree with this judgment. CIA and FBI have high confidence in this judgment; NSA has moderate confidence.

 Your reading was more than careful enough.

In Dave's case, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that he missed the implication of the words "discreditng Secretary Clinton".

In your case, it's just another exercise in Facts Don't Matter.

 This particular back and forth started when Paul took the words "moderate degree of confidence" from a NY Times article and claimed they described the view of the NSA on whether "Russia attacked our democracy".  In fact, what he wrote is not true.  The "moderate degree of confidence" reported in the article was about the NSA assessment of Putin's personal involvement.  As I posted on the prior page:

nohero said:

Paul took those words out of a paragraph that wasn't even about the determination "that Russia attacked our democracy".

"Mr. Barr has long been interested in the conclusion about Mr. Putin ordering intervention on Mr. Trump’s behalf, perhaps the intelligence report’s most explosive assertion. The C.I.A. and the F.B.I. reported high confidence in the conclusion, while the N.S.A., which conducts electronic surveillance, had a moderate degree of confidence."

It doesn't matter to me if someone wants to lie about what's in a report or a news article.  It does matter if the lies are used to falsely accuse me of having a "Facts Don't Matter" attitude.  

 Of course none of this relates to what I said, which is conspicuously missing from this "rebuttal" of what I didn't say.

Red_Barchetta said:

paulsurovell said:

If you read this 

 Nope.  That's as far as I'll go.  

 Your honesty is appreciated.

Red_Barchetta said:

drummerboy said:

paulsurovell said:

 As I've pointed out numerous times, if Russia hacked the DNC, the NSA would have proof of it.

You can say this as much as you want. Doesn't make it true, even if it comes from your VIPS

 Note that Paul's post does not exclude the possiblity that BOTH Russia hacked the DNC, AND the NSA has proof of it.  

 That's correct. 

paulsurovell said:

Dennis_Seelbach said:

paulsurovell said:

jamie said:

and what has their security clearance level been in the past 20 years?

 What has Rachel Maddow's security clearance level ever been?

 WTF...What has that got to do with anything. You are a shameful POS !

 Are you criticizing Jamie's comment or mine?

 You have to ask?????????

paulsurovell said:

drummerboy said:

There was a recent story that says Trump apparently believes the Ukraine-interference conspiracy because Putin told him about it.

I'm wondering how people like paul, nan and terp react to a story like this.

For the rest of us, we think "Just more proof of Trump being subservient to Putin."

But do the trio say " Well, yeah, of course Putin told him. Putin's got the truth. Duh." ?

 The Ukraine interfered story has been documented by Politico, the Nation, the Financial Times and the New York Times and other sources. It's incontrovertible and has nothing to do with Putin.

Those stories are just efforts to distract from the facts to confuse you and your gullible cohort.

You didn't answer my question. And like "high crimes and misdemeanors", your definition of "interference" is ludicrous.

And I'm pretty sure that's not what Putin was talking about anyway.

drummerboy said:

Red_Barchetta said:

drummerboy said:

paulsurovell said:

 As I've pointed out numerous times, if Russia hacked the DNC, the NSA would have proof of it.

You can say this as much as you want. Doesn't make it true, even if it comes from your VIPS

 Note that Paul's post does not exclude the possiblity that BOTH Russia hacked the DNC, AND the NSA has proof of it.  

True, but Paul is clearly implying that such proof does not exist, because I guess he thinks the NSA would be bragging about it if it did.

The NSA wouldn't be "bragging" but providing proof of an allegation that is a premise of our political discourse and of US foreign policy. If we are "at war" with Russia the public should have proof of the reasons and not rely on "trust" in the intelligence agencies.

The Horowitz report shows that at least one of the intelligence agencies that "assessed" Russian interference without proof is corrupt and cannot be trusted.

And then there are the lessons of 2003 . . . 

paulsurovell said:

 Trump can declassify anything he wants, but he's been cautious because he knows he would be committing political suicide (lose Republicans) and would probably be blocked by the bureaucracy (deep state) if he tried to release the classified documents on the DNC hacking. He's given Barr authority to declassify, but it's unlikely Barr will investigate the hacking question for the same reasons.

 I have zero idea why declassifying this info would be "political suicide".  So in your mind - Trump has all of the info to prove his main talking point and he won't release it.  Can you expand on your reason why they wouldn't go further on this - I'm truly not getting it.

How can he be blocked by the "deep state"?  The president can declassify anything he wants.

drummerboy said:

paulsurovell said:

drummerboy said:

There was a recent story that says Trump apparently believes the Ukraine-interference conspiracy because Putin told him about it.

I'm wondering how people like paul, nan and terp react to a story like this.

For the rest of us, we think "Just more proof of Trump being subservient to Putin."

But do the trio say " Well, yeah, of course Putin told him. Putin's got the truth. Duh." ?

 The Ukraine interfered story has been documented by Politico, the Nation, the Financial Times and the New York Times and other sources. It's incontrovertible and has nothing to do with Putin.

Those stories are just efforts to distract from the facts to confuse you and your gullible cohort.

You didn't answer my question. And like "high crimes and misdemeanors", your definition of "interference" is ludicrous.

And I'm pretty sure that's not what Putin was talking about anyway.

 I answered your question. I told you that Putin has nothing to do with the evidence that Ukraine interfered in the 2016 election and I referenced these articles:

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/01/ukraine-sabotage-trump-backfire-233446

and here:

https://www.ft.com/content/c98078d0-6ae7-11e6-a0b1-d87a9fea034f

and here

https://www.thenation.com/article/ukraine-elections-2016/

and here:

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/15/us/politics/paul-manafort-ukraine-donald-trump.html

and here:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/12/world/europe/ukraine-paul-manafort.html

jamie said:

paulsurovell said:

 Trump can declassify anything he wants, but he's been cautious because he knows he would be committing political suicide (lose Republicans) and would probably be blocked by the bureaucracy (deep state) if he tried to release the classified documents on the DNC hacking. He's given Barr authority to declassify, but it's unlikely Barr will investigate the hacking question for the same reasons.

 I have zero idea why declassifying this info would be "political suicide".  So in your mind - Trump has all of the info to prove his main talking point and he won't release it.  Can you expand on your reason why they wouldn't go further on this - I'm truly not getting it.

How can he be blocked by the "deep state"?  The president can declassify anything he wants.

Trump's survival depends on support of the Republican Senate. If he were to go against the demands of the intelligence community and declassify its crown jewels, many if not most Republican senators would desert him in a heart beat.

Most Republicans will support investigations and even reprimands of the intelligence community for partisan purposes (that is what is happening with Barr) but they are loyal to the institution and will defend it against frontal attacks.

A good example of how Trump can be blocked from declassifying anything he wants is when he was "convinced" by institutional protectors to break his promise to declassify the remaining Kennedy Assassination files, despite the law that allows their declassification. What secrets are being protected 56 years later that the public is not allowed to see?

More evidence that Trump is Putin's puppet. I'm sure that believers will say that Putin wanted Trump to do this.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-sanctions-halt-work-on-russias-gas-pipeline-to-europe-11576929267

paulsurovell said:

 The Ukraine interfered story has been documented by Politico, the Nation, the Financial Times and the New York Times and other sources. It's incontrovertible and has nothing to do with Putin.

Those stories are just efforts to distract from the facts to confuse you and your gullible cohort.

 How can I put this?  NO, NO IT HASN'T.

paulsurovell said:

 Of course none of this relates to what I said, which is conspicuously missing from this "rebuttal" of what I didn't say.

 Paul' tying the discussion in knots like that, as a technique to run away when called on something, is getting tiresome.

And having to respond to repeated insults is getting tiresome for me.  Could we just all talk about the posts and not the poster?

paulsurovell said:

 Trump can declassify anything he wants, but he's been cautious because he knows he would be committing political suicide (lose Republicans) and would probably be blocked by the bureaucracy (deep state) if he tried to release the classified documents on the DNC hacking. He's given Barr authority to declassify, but it's unlikely Barr will investigate the hacking question for the same reasons.

 When has he ever been "cautious"? He believes it would be a sign of weakness. Further he doesn't believe anything he does, including shooting someone, would be political suicide.  

paulsurovell said:

Trump's survival depends on support of the Republican Senate. If he were to go against the demands of the intelligence community and declassify its crown jewels, many if not most Republican senators would desert him in a heart beat.

His survival and that of most Republican Senators depends on the support of White Evangelicals and others in his "base" that see him as their Tribune and Saviour. The Republican Party is the Party of Trump.

You and I seem to live in different realities.  

paulsurovell said:

 Trump can declassify anything he wants, but he's been cautious because he knows he would be committing political suicide (lose Republicans) and would probably be blocked by the bureaucracy (deep state) if he tried to release the classified documents on the DNC hacking. He's given Barr authority to declassify, but it's unlikely Barr will investigate the hacking question for the same reasons.

 That is an absolutely fantastic argument.  It could well shut down any intelligent and informed counter argument.  We might as well close the thread after an argument like that.

nohero said:

 That is an absolutely fantastic argument.  It could well shut down any intelligent and informed counter argument.  We might as well close the thread after an argument like that.

 AMEN!

nohero said:

paulsurovell said:

 Trump can declassify anything he wants, but he's been cautious because he knows he would be committing political suicide (lose Republicans) and would probably be blocked by the bureaucracy (deep state) if he tried to release the classified documents on the DNC hacking. He's given Barr authority to declassify, but it's unlikely Barr will investigate the hacking question for the same reasons.

 That is an absolutely fantastic argument.  It could well shut down any intelligent and informed counter argument.  We might as well close the thread after an argument like that.

  +1000 - Paul's Trump assumptions are reaching a new height with that response.  I'm actually speechless.  

Idiocy.

nohero said:

paulsurovell said:

 Of course none of this relates to what I said, which is conspicuously missing from this "rebuttal" of what I didn't say.

 Paul' tying the discussion in knots like that, as a technique to run away when called on something, is getting tiresome.

And having to respond to repeated insults is getting tiresome for me.  Could we just all talk about the posts and not the poster?

Then show my posts when you attempt to rebut them.

jamie said:

nohero said:

paulsurovell said:

 Trump can declassify anything he wants, but he's been cautious because he knows he would be committing political suicide (lose Republicans) and would probably be blocked by the bureaucracy (deep state) if he tried to release the classified documents on the DNC hacking. He's given Barr authority to declassify, but it's unlikely Barr will investigate the hacking question for the same reasons.

 That is an absolutely fantastic argument.  It could well shut down any intelligent and informed counter argument.  We might as well close the thread after an argument like that.

  +1000 - Paul's Trump assumptions are reaching a new height with that response.  I'm actually speechless.  

If you're saying that the Republicans are not supporters of the Security State you are living in another world.

nohero said:

paulsurovell said:

 Trump can declassify anything he wants, but he's been cautious because he knows he would be committing political suicide (lose Republicans) and would probably be blocked by the bureaucracy (deep state) if he tried to release the classified documents on the DNC hacking. He's given Barr authority to declassify, but it's unlikely Barr will investigate the hacking question for the same reasons.

 That is an absolutely fantastic argument.  It could well shut down any intelligent and informed counter argument.  We might as well close the thread after an argument like that.

I'll take that as an endorsement.

paulsurovell said:

nohero said:

paulsurovell said:

 Trump can declassify anything he wants, but he's been cautious because he knows he would be committing political suicide (lose Republicans) and would probably be blocked by the bureaucracy (deep state) if he tried to release the classified documents on the DNC hacking. He's given Barr authority to declassify, but it's unlikely Barr will investigate the hacking question for the same reasons.

 That is an absolutely fantastic argument.  It could well shut down any intelligent and informed counter argument.  We might as well close the thread after an argument like that.

I'll take that as an endorsement.

 Of course you do

STANV said:

paulsurovell said:

Trump's survival depends on support of the Republican Senate. If he were to go against the demands of the intelligence community and declassify its crown jewels, many if not most Republican senators would desert him in a heart beat.

His survival and that of most Republican Senators depends on the support of White Evangelicals and others in his "base" that see him as their Tribune and Saviour. The Republican Party is the Party of Trump.

You and I seem to live in different realities.  

 The Party of Trump is the party of Trump only so long as he serves the right-wing agenda which includes feeding the military-industrial complex, supporting the Security State, gutting anything that stands in the way of doing business and exploiting workers and enriching the rich by cutting taxes, privatization and giving away natural resources.

The right wing (except for libertarians) is fully devoted to protecting the Security State (which includes the FBI, CIA and NSA). except for the one instance when the Security State went after Trump (Russiagate). They have no problem with ongoing violations of civil liberties of civil rights, peace and labor activists by these agencies. And neither does Trump.

STANV said:

paulsurovell said:

 Trump can declassify anything he wants, but he's been cautious because he knows he would be committing political suicide (lose Republicans) and would probably be blocked by the bureaucracy (deep state) if he tried to release the classified documents on the DNC hacking. He's given Barr authority to declassify, but it's unlikely Barr will investigate the hacking question for the same reasons.

 When has he ever been "cautious"? He believes it would be a sign of weakness. Further he doesn't believe anything he does, including shooting someone, would be political suicide.  

 You omitted my reference to the classified JFK Assassination files. How do you explain his acquiescence to the wishes of the Security State?

Bump

Don't want this to get "missed" in the flurry.

@drummerboy? @nohero? @cramer? @sbenois? @jamie? @PVW? @ml1?

My apologies if I skipped anyone.

paulsurovell said:

More evidence that Trump is Putin's puppet. I'm sure that believers will say that Putin wanted Trump to do this.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-sanctions-halt-work-on-russias-gas-pipeline-to-europe-11576929267

paulsurovell said:

Then show my posts when you attempt to rebut them.

 That last one would have been a long re-post with old posts nested in other posts. I thought people could refer back if they needed to, so decided not to be an a**hole. 

paulsurovell said:

STANV said:

paulsurovell said:

Trump's survival depends on support of the Republican Senate. If he were to go against the demands of the intelligence community and declassify its crown jewels, many if not most Republican senators would desert him in a heart beat.

His survival and that of most Republican Senators depends on the support of White Evangelicals and others in his "base" that see him as their Tribune and Saviour. The Republican Party is the Party of Trump.

You and I seem to live in different realities.  

 The Party of Trump is the party of Trump only so long as he serves the right-wing agenda which includes feeding the military-industrial complex, supporting the Security State, gutting anything that stands in the way of doing business and exploiting workers and enriching the rich by cutting taxes, privatization and giving away natural resources.

The right wing (except for libertarians) is fully devoted to protecting the Security State (which includes the FBI, CIA and NSA). except for the one instance when the Security State went after Trump (Russiagate). They have no problem with ongoing violations of civil liberties of civil rights, peace and labor activists by these agencies. And neither does Trump.

I guess you missed the Republican party turning on the intelligence community as just another example of the corrupt deep state.

You should pay better attention.

paulsurovell said:

More evidence that Trump is Putin's puppet. I'm sure that believers will say that Putin wanted Trump to do this.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-sanctions-halt-work-on-russias-gas-pipeline-to-europe-11576929267

“Trump to do this” is another untruth. It was an act of Congress, part of the National Defense Authorization Act. Since the House passed it 377-48 and the Senate 86-8, both easily veto-proof margins, the president’s signature was a formality.

One thing that's impossible to 

paulsurovell said:

Bump

Don't want this to get "missed" in the flurry.

@drummerboy? @nohero? @cramer? @sbenois? @jamie? @PVW? @ml1?

My apologies if I skipped anyone.

paulsurovell said:

More evidence that Trump is Putin's puppet. I'm sure that believers will say that Putin wanted Trump to do this.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-sanctions-halt-work-on-russias-gas-pipeline-to-europe-11576929267

 

 Please provide Trump's quotes fully supporting these sanctions.  Or could in be that he conceded with these provisions in exchange for his $738 in defense spending, his "space force" and wall?  These sanctions were buried in the funding bill - I would like to know where the recommendations for sanctions originated.  

Trump chooses to believe Putin over his own intelligence agencies.

Now tell me he's not Putin's puppet.