Gifted and talented program at Maplewood Middle
DaveSchmidt said:
kmt said:And while the critics make their cases, there are also takers who are satisfied. Even without special G&T programs, the district has much to offer those students.
So basically, take it or leave it @h4daniel.
Dave, if somebody has a kid who sincerely wants to learn more but is frustrated by the pace of a class, do you think that it helps to brand that kid and his parents as critics?
Honest question, I know that different towns offer different value propositions to new buyers.
sprout said:
I think there is also a lot of teacher-student fit. If the teacher 'gets' your kid, it helps substantially.
That’s a good point too. Some kids (and probably teachers) struggle with personality differences. I’m not sure what the best way is to deal with this, other than encouraging the kid to muddle through.
kmt said:Dave, if somebody has a kid who sincerely wants to learn more but is frustrated by the pace of a class, do you think that it helps to brand that kid and his parents as critics?
And while the critics make their cases, there are also takers who are satisfied. Even without special G&T programs, the district has much to offer those students.
Honest question, I know that different towns offer different value propositions to new buyers.
They are critics of district policies. I didn’t intend it as a subjective, let alone negative, description. If you have a more neutral term you prefer, I’m open to it.
Dave, I don't know why our interactions always end in this quibbling over word choice.
In terms of framing what's going on here, I think that it's fair to call somebody like _me_ a critic. I don't have a kid in the M/SO system anymore; I took my son out and moved to another town because I saw that my son wouldn't be served well in M/SO schools. And I come back here now and then when there's major news that highlights the attitudes that led me to that decision, like BOE member Stephanie Muhammad's recent abuse of power and racist insults (and the fact that she remains on the board to this day). I'm a critic because essentially all I have left for M/SO is criticism.
However, somebody like @h4daniel is not a critic. This person has one or more kids in local schools, is actively paying taxes (I assume), and has a problem that a constructive community might help to address. It might be that nothing will be done for him/her, but in any case this is a very different circumstance.
DaveSchmidt said:
And while the critics make their cases, there are also takers who are satisfied.
kmt said:
Dave, I don't know why our interactions always end in this quibbling over word choice.
I explained why I used the word. To your question, I responded that I’m not wedded to it. I’m happy to yield and let the discussion continue.
iangrodman said:
Living in Lake Woebegone.
A frequent comment in the dozens of old threads on these issues. What was the tag line? Where all children are special?
Of course, that was years ago. What do you mean now?
The flip side of that argument is the fallacious belief that all kids are exactly or even approximately the same.
Wow! Who said all children are the same? Each child can be different and yet special. Truly gifted children, like all children, are precious and have a lot to offer the world. Their gifts should be nurtured from the earliest age. The truly fallacious argument is that these gifts are static, largely academic, and can only be discovered in test scores and nurtured in an environment totally separated from other children. This is unfortunately what many believe is an appropriate G and T program.
SOMSD has removed the few things it used to offer for additional academic challenge before high school, such as the elementary enrichment program and the Accelerated English program, which began in 8th grade. Differentiated instruction was mostly wishful thinking for many years, although perhaps the district has done more teacher training. There is a parent support group you could look into HASHTAGS, although the founder Alison Brown, a psychologist and gifted child consultant, is moving out of district. I think every other area school district does more, including West Orange and Montclair if you are looking for racial diversity. Friends who have chosen private school seem happy.
For a middle school child, your child could test for the Johns Hopkins Center for Talented Youth, which offers online and summer classes. You could also talk to the principal and maybe Dr. Rando if you think your child would benefit from single subject acceleration. That costs the district nothing so they might agree to it. The Accelerated English program was great so I am sorry it was eliminated. If anyone wanted to file a lawsuit I would be happy to provide information to support it.
In terms of private schools, are there some that offer gifted programs, or is it assumed that because many parents come out of pocket, that all the children are somehow accelerated? If anyone here has private school experience, please school me on their gifted programs. I would also be interested in what formats other nearby towns have offered as gifted programming. And lastly, no one here has offered an alternative to what is now offered by SOMA schools.
annielou said:
In terms of private schools, are there some that offer gifted programs, or is it assumed that because many parents come out of pocket, that all the children are somehow accelerated? If anyone here has private school experience, please school me on their gifted programs. I would also be interested in what formats other nearby towns have offered as gifted programming. And lastly, no one here has offered an alternative to what is now offered by SOMA schools.
You can do some online research into other school districts to see their different offerings. It's not hard. You could look at the website for the Essex County Gifted and Talented Students Consortium to see what they offer and which local districts belong to it (most but not ours). It's a low-cost option to offer some academic challenge and social support for these students.
Orange School District.
Those exceptionally able students who possess or demonstrate high levels of ability, in one or more content areas, when compare to their chronological peers in the local district and who require modification of their educational program if they are to achieve in accordance with their capabilities.
Established in 2012, the Scholars Academy program provides services for students in grades 1-8 who meet the criteria for the program. Students are bused to the Scholars Academy once a week and deeply explore and engage in CORE activities with Science, STEM, Language Arts, and Math. The instructional emphasis is on challenging the students to develop their area of strength. Applications are accepted in December for February enrollment and May for September enrollment. All information is posted online at
www.orange.k12.nj.us/domain/1625
Scholars Academy is a nice idea if the students are not also responsible for missed assignments on days when they are bussed. Children could view that as not the greatest. An ideal solution would be for a Scholars Academy type idea that closely follows the regular school curriculum and just bump it up in those areas where the child is deemed gifted. They may in fact do that in Orange. Don’t know. If not, it’s just enrichment, which is applicable to any child. I would also add the arts, which many schools do now, called STEAM.
annielou said:
Scholars Academy is a nice idea if the students are not also responsible for missed assignments on days when they are bussed.
They are not responsible for missed assignments but are responsible for assigned homework. They must also continue to excel in their regular curriculum. At the district level, the program is under the Department of Special Programs.
This is a nice idea for South Orange if there was an available building that could be renovated for a STEAM gifted program, and if it could also be used as an enrichment center and after school center for other children as well. Any grant writers out there?
I apologize for the length. To summarize: G&T criteria may be a poor match for identification of giftedness, and may have bias.
- I use the Orange district info below as one example.
- Then I link to my previous critique of the Johns Hopkins test.
ElizMcCord said:
Orange School District.
Those exceptionally able students who possess or demonstrate high levels of ability, in one or more content areas, when compare to their chronological peers in the local district and who require modification of their educational program if they are to achieve in accordance with their capabilities.
Established in 2012, the Scholars Academy program provides services for students in grades 1-8 who meet the criteria for the program. Students are bused to the Scholars Academy once a week and deeply explore and engage in CORE activities with Science, STEM, Language Arts, and Math. The instructional emphasis is on challenging the students to develop their area of strength. Applications are accepted in December for February enrollment and May for September enrollment. All information is posted online at
www.orange.k12.nj.us/domain/1625
I looked at the website, and it strikes me as an insane application process.
First someone has to nominate the student by filling out the form (is it a parent or a teacher who fills it out?). https://www.orange.k12.nj.us/cms/lib/NJ01000601/Centricity/Domain/1625/Application%202018-2019.pdf
Questions include:
- Disregarding test results, would you rank this pupil in the upper 3 percent of their class in academic performance?
- In your opinion, is this child gifted?
- Is performance consistent with results of standardized test?
- List at least 3 reasons how this student would benefit from instruction modified to address the needs of the Exceptionally Able student.
- Write a narrative describing the personal characteristics of the student that would characterize him/her as Exceptionally Able as illustrated in the GATES Scale below.
Once the kid jumps the hurdles of having someone identify them, nominate them, and write an essay about why they are "Exceptionally Able", then they still need to take a test:
From: www.orange.k12.nj.us/domain/1625
The computerized assessment will be conducted in June at the student's homeschool. Here is a website to view sample questions of the computerized the NNAT3 assessment. NNAT3 Sample
OK, so I look at the sample. It's an interesting exam since it has no verbal prompts. It's logic and patterning using only images. I'm guessing that the Orange district did not want English language learners to have a disadvantage, so that's why this test was selected.
The first two things I look at in a test technical manual are the Validity (to understand what exactly the test is good at measuring) and the DIF (differential item functioning, i.e., bias) sections.
My concerns when reading "computerized assessment" is that it may have bias against kids who don't have a computer at home (economically disadvantaged kids). And when I see the example items are all spacial-logic patterns using graphics, my concern is that there may be a bias against girls.
I found their user manual, but no technical manual: https://images.pearsonassessments.com/images/Assets/nnat3/NNAT3-Manual_LL.pdf
The validity section fails muster. First, it doesn't say what the test is valid for. Why is this a good test of 'giftedness'? What types of giftedness? It doesn't say.
The only "validity" evidence presented, correlations with other tests, demonstrates surprisingly low correlations (the highest adjusted r is .66), which doesn't appear to support their claim that the "two assessments measure a similar construct". I am guessing this construct is supposed to be "general ability". Which seems rather strange when their giftedness webpage mentions that they only need to be gifted "in one or more content areas".
There is no section in the NNAT3 Manual for DIF. In other words, it appears the test wasn't examined for any types of bias. (Or if it was, they didn't want to report the results).
Unfortunately, tests being a poor match to the desired criteria seems very common in G&T testing. You can see my critique earlier this year of the Johns Hopkins G&T test here:
Apparently our district thinks it's easier to do nothing than something, although it has given lip service to "multiple measures" for identification in the past. There probably is no one perfect identification measure, including testing, but that's no reason to do nothing. The Super Dr. Ficarra came from a diverse district with a G&T program (Morristown) so he must know how it can work.
chalmers said:
Apparently our district thinks it's easier to do nothing than something, although it has given lip service to "multiple measures" for identification in the past. There probably is no one perfect identification measure, including testing, but that's no reason to do nothing. The Super Dr. Ficarra came from a diverse district with a G&T program (Morristown) so he must know how it can work.
Our district is in the process of de-leveling everything. G&T is a pipe dream.
annielou said:
Deleveling has nothing to do with mandated programming of any kind.
I am commenting on the mindset of the administration and BOE. G&T couldn't be farther from their minds as they deal with multiple lawsuits and rotating superintendents.
They had a mandated lawsuit settlement and couldn't even keep up with that.
I am beyond frustrated, the option of private school is not on the table. Really a $30,000 dollar price tag plus our taxes? And we do not identify with a religion. It angers me that I look around at all the other districts surrounding us and they all have programs for acceleration (don't want to get into a conversation of what true giftedness is, I am talking about a child wanting more than what is offered, excelling and no options in our district). It angers me that like some on this board, seems like the only option is to move - and this is a big decision because we like it here. I don't want to sue the district, I don't want to take away any funds that this district so sorely needs.
The worksheets are not cutting it. Differentiated instruction is difficult to do, especially with a large class. You need small class sizes and supports... Maybe people can continue drinking the kool-aide and thinking the idea of going back to the single 19th century classroom is the best option. If you have taught you realize this is hard!!!!!! Flow and focus is broken - think of multitasking and having a targeted focus.
Anyone who has been following this debate in this district can see where our schools are moving, and with the practical threat of the suits and one well connected media savvy person who is set on closing off all options of acceleration.
The district could not implement the IB program, wonder how the deleveling has been going? Why not speak about the data? Desired results? Wonder if the desired results do not happen? Sorry to be pessimistic, but anyone who has looked into the achievement gap beyond a few articles, can see that this is beyond complex, and with our budget concerns, class sizes, economic disparity, this is not going to be fixed. What then, the wealthy can go off to their private schools, and the rest of us, all colors, can deal with the drips and drabs of differentiated instruction for a class of 22.
The issue for us is the option for acceleration, not that we were looking for the gifted and talented designation. A teacher recommended, and I saw it was maybe a possibility for a targeted program, instead of a differentiated approach of a worksheet here or there depending on the teacher. But as I said no one wants to even give a response to the inquiry. Seems like no plan was put into place after the discussion by the BOE back in 2012.
h4daniel, agreed. We've been here for a long time, and our issues with the schools are the only reason we consider moving. The only one. This district was awful for our twice exceptional (gifted and special needs) eldest, for reasons that have to do with weakness in both G&T awareness/approaches and Special Education problems.
I've spent a decade-plus going to meetings, reading documents, and generally watching our district on this issue and others
Over the last decade, we have made some real progress on the Special Education side of the equation, in spite of personnel churn (although much remains to be done). On the G&T side, we've seen well-meaning people try to design helpful programs, constrained by the BOE to do it with no pullouts and essentially no budget.
So what we have created is essentially an anti-litigation fig leaf, with identification by nomination (no bias there!), to create a document of strategies that teachers might implement. The program probably got 15 or 30 minutes of time in our crowded professional development schedule. And the people who created it are gone.
No one owns it, no one is judged on whether it succeeds (as long as no lawsuits are filed). We continue to rely on differentiation in a heterogenous classroom, which has highly variable outcomes in our experience.
Parents who know how to work the system successfully might be able to get some support via this approach, but it is not a well-grounded or broad-based approach at this point.
Pull out programs are the least effective and most disruptive method of providing acceleration. Maybe part of the problem is the reliance on archaic models as references when we discuss gifted services.
h4daniel said:
I am beyond frustrated, the option of private school is not on the table. Really a $30,000 dollar price tag plus our taxes? And we do not identify with a religion. It angers me that I look around at all the other districts surrounding us and they all have programs for acceleration (don't want to get into a conversation of what true giftedness is, I am talking about a child wanting more than what is offered, excelling and no options in our district). It angers me that like some on this board, seems like the only option is to move - and this is a big decision because we like it here. I don't want to sue the district, I don't want to take away any funds that this district so sorely
We made the same calculation about 7 years ago and left. We decided it was a better investment to pay more for a house, less for taxes and not need to consider private school.
I have to say that in middle school there is huge difference in quality of education. My son is not in any honors classes but is doing much more substantive work than my daughter ever did in SOMS Level 4.
For elementary we have a pull out gifted program. You have to test into it every year. We also have Honors classes starting in 7th that have a test score and grade requirements. If you do not maintain a B average in honors, you move back to regular. You can also move up based on grades. So it’s flexible and really does teach at a faster pace and has more advanced projects.
There will never be a G&T program in SOMA, Walter Fields would be suing you before the first class started. The push in SOMA, even before I left was to homogenize everything and teach to the common denominator. Since we left there has been an even bigger push to delevel by allowing every kid to choose his level. (And this policy wouldn’t even be mentioned in any other district, let alone adopted) Even measures like this that have proved insufficient to those who see racial bogeymen everywhere. What they are looking for is not equality of opportunity, which is provided for by allowing Level choice, but equality of outcomes, which they try to achieve by dumbing everything down so most kids can get A’s and B’s.
Why would Walter Fields sue over something that is mandated by the state? I’m sure there are parents of every ethnicity who may feel their child needs acceleration. This convo is getting really kookie.
Thank you to Chalmers for the pointers.
There are lots of challenging classes at Columbia. But it is a long wait to get there. We won't leave the district, and private schools are not an option.
I am very frustrated with our Board: they endorsed and abandoned an IB program, let Ramos dismiss the consultant for Access & Equity so a new lawsuit can be filed. They struggle to manage data tracking the achievement gap. That's not competence in action. Developing a G&T program would be an advanced maneuver. How long has the current chair served?
Glad to vote for BoE challengers who believe that we can provide unbiased access to advanced classes in middle schools rather than just hope for differentiated instruction.
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I think there is also a lot of teacher-student fit. If the teacher 'gets' your kid, it helps substantially.