Family separated by politics

terp said:

I think it is tough when you cannot discuss any topic with family.  However, we should always enter into a conversation willing to listen and learn from the other side.  No matter who you are you don't have all the answers.

We certainly should not write off family and friends due to what we may percieve as an objectionable opinion.  If its out of character then its likely that we just don't understand why they hold that opinion.  Take it from someone who almost never agrees with friends and family.  

Anyway, it is likely that these opinions do not completely define this person. Otherwise, you probably wouldn't have cared about them in the first place.

It's christmas. Let's cut our loved ones a break every now and again.

I agree with this (and regular readers will know that terp and I are, in our political views, very far apart).

I'm currently back in the midwest for the holidays, where this question is pretty immediate and direct for me. I'd say that in my observation, while we talk about politics as if it were about values, in practice I find it seldom is. Almost everyone I know back here is a staunch Republican. Some of them I share a lot of values with, and I wonder how they could possibly vote the way they do given how opposed to our shared values I find Republican policies. Some of these folks I've never been on the same page on, and so on paper it's les surprising they'd support Trump. But yet, both the folks I respect and the ones I don't here, tend to vote the same.

I've observed the same thing since I've moved East. Even on this board, where most folks tend to vote they way I do, there are people who I feel I share values with, and people who I really don't.

So voting, in practice, I've found doesn't tell you much about values. Heck, for that matter I find very little of the things that are supposed to map to values actually do -- from religion to job choices to music to what one reads etc. If I had to guess why, I'd propose it's along the lines of that people don't deal with abstractions well. People might very well be kind, generous, and warm on a person-to-person level, and yet support policies and politicians who destroy families and ruin lives (and really, on some level, arguably even the best-intentioned of us are guilty of this -- there's a lot of acknowledgement, for instance, of the destructiveness of fossil fuels, yet I certainly haven't given up my car...)

So if we're talking about rifts, for me it's about how we treat each other. If I'm back home visiting and relative is open to talking politics, that's one thing. It's quite another if, knowing we disagree, I go out of my way to bring it up -- and likewise the reverse.  Politics aren't values, but behavior is, and whether someone is hospitable or rude, for me, is closer to whether we get along or have a rift.

“Of course there are. Many argue that the prison system is an off-shoot of slavery.“

Can you tell us more how that “argument” goes?

mtierney said:

“Of course there are. Many argue that the prison system is an off-shoot of slavery.“





Can you tell us more how that “argument” goes?

Sure can...

1. "The New Jim Crow"- Michelle Alexander (book available on Amazon)

      Basic premise described here:  http://newjimcrow.com/about

2. "Slavery By Another Name" - Doug Blackmon (Avail on Amazon)

        Described here: http://www.pbs.org/tpt/slavery-by-another-name/about/

        Available to screen here: http://www.pbs.org/tpt/slavery-by-another-name/watch/

3. And here's a trailer for a documentary on the 13th Amendment available on Netflix

and a description of the film: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-film-13th-avaduvernay/film-13th-traces-path-from-slavery-to-u-s-mass-incarceration-idUSKCN1241RF

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/12/a-tribute-to-my-improbable-tea-party-friend/#

Thanks for the well thought out post PVP.  I think political differences are often perspective based rather than value based.

Great story boomie!

boomie said:







http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/12/a-tribute-to-my-improbable-tea-party-friend/#

Our criminal justice system is criminal. 

flimbro said:

mtierney said:

“Of course there are. Many argue that the prison system is an off-shoot of slavery.“





Can you tell us more how that “argument” goes?

Sure can...

1. "The New Jim Crow"- Michelle Alexander (book available on Amazon)

      Basic premise described here:  http://newjimcrow.com/about

2. "Slavery By Another Name" - Doug Blackmon (Avail on Amazon)

        Described here: http://www.pbs.org/tpt/slavery-by-another-name/about/

        Available to screen here: http://www.pbs.org/tpt/slavery-by-another-name/watch/

3. And here's a trailer for a documentary on the 13th Amendment available on Netflix

and a description of the film: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-film-13th-avaduvernay/film-13th-traces-path-from-slavery-to-u-s-mass-incarceration-idUSKCN1241RF

a mistake some people make,IMHO, is attempting to rewrite history to conform to present day sensibilities. It rarely works and promotes bitterness, angst and anger. Social “norms” have changed rapidly and leave many people of both sexes and loved ones and family members wondering what freight train just passed them by.

When visiting family, the newly enlightened need to show respect for their relatives opinions and just listen and nod occasionally to insure mom, dad, or Uncle Harry that you are listening to them instead of mentally planning how to rip into their comments and denigrate their viewpoints. 

It is an old fashioned approach based on respect and love for these misguided folks who share your DNA. You will not change their views over one dinner or brunch table, but you may just come away happy to have shared family time — without heartburn.

If you can’t be polite and civil, please tell Mom or Dad you can’t come for the holidays.

" I might possibly change my view of this if I were to hear one single Trump supporter explain to me how they can justify their support, based on what they know about him. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe there actually is a redeemable quality to this man. "

Besides all he's accomplished on so many different levels this year, I can justify supporting the POTUS, based on his willingness to sit at the table with Democrats; trying to find any common ground to deal with all the pressing issues of our times...

ajc, can you give us some examples  of when Trump has tried to work with Democrats?

I don't agree with the idea of staying quiet. Every single day is an opportunity for growth and understanding. I think we all have a responsibility to expand our horizons and perspectives to include new ideas and thoughts. The 'newly enlightened' should engage their relatives politely and respectfully. That's how the world changes. 

flimbro said:

I don't agree with the idea of staying quiet. Every single day is an opportunity for growth and understanding. I think we all have a responsibility to expand our horizons and perspectives to include new ideas and thoughts. The 'newly enlightened' should engage their relatives politely and respectfully. That's how the world changes. 

Not really.   That's not really how the world changes.

it seems the assumption is always that it's the liberals who should bite their tongues in these family gatherings.  Are there message boards among mostly conservatives where they discuss how they can try to get along with liberal relatives by keeping their thoughts and comments to themselves?  

It is difficult and it's because "Politics" isn't just a topic of discussion. It's a way of expressing who you are, what and who you respect and what terrible things you're willing to overlook or not overlook for your own potential gain. It's about what you don't understand and who and what you fear. These are all personal things...not just "political." 

Last Thanksgiving, my sister was concerned about coming to my home for Thanksgiving because my in-laws would be there. The reason she was concerned was because of the angry, misguided anti-Muslim rhetoric from Trump and others that they supported in their Facebook posts that my sister saw. And, she was right. I was appalled by them, but as family, welcome my in-laws into my home. My sister is married to a man who is a Muslim from Pakistan..... Despite the fact that my sister was not going to let their misguided posts deter her from joining her family on Thanksgiving, she did not attend Thanksgiving...but it was because her husband's daughter was finishing up her medical degree studies here in the U.S. and she expedited her coming here because of Trump's Muslim Ban rhetoric and she was concerned about waiting until 2017 to come to the US to complete her medical degree. (Several of my sister's husband's children are top doctors here in the US after studying here.) She was smart to come early.

Politics is personal and what you support or condemn is not just something that occurs in the voting booth.

boomie said:

flimbro said:

I don't agree with the idea of staying quiet. Every single day is an opportunity for growth and understanding. I think we all have a responsibility to expand our horizons and perspectives to include new ideas and thoughts. The 'newly enlightened' should engage their relatives politely and respectfully. That's how the world changes. 

Not really.   That's not really how the world changes.

How does your world change? 

My world changes by speaking out and up to those in power, relatives, coworkers, friends, enemies and anyone else with ears to hear and a capacity to change. 

Is that what they tell you on Fox News these days?

In the real world, on the day Trump was to meet with Schumer and Pelosi, he called them names, like the 7 year old he is.

ajc said:

" I might possibly change my view of this if I were to hear one single Trump supporter explain to me how they can justify their support, based on what they know about him. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe there actually is a redeemable quality to this man. "




Besides all he's accomplished on so many different levels this year, I can justify supporting the POTUS, based on his willingness to sit at the table with Democrats; trying to find any common ground to deal with all the pressing issues of our times...

of course, step one in social change is to communicate to the other side what the change should be. Without that, what's step two?

flimbro said:

boomie said:

flimbro said:

I don't agree with the idea of staying quiet. Every single day is an opportunity for growth and understanding. I think we all have a responsibility to expand our horizons and perspectives to include new ideas and thoughts. The 'newly enlightened' should engage their relatives politely and respectfully. That's how the world changes. 

Not really.   That's not really how the world changes.

How does your world change? 




My world changes by speaking out and up to those in power, relatives, coworkers, friends, enemies and anyone else with ears to hear and a capacity to change. 

Somewhere within the frantic efforts to “explain” our recent apocalyptic election, a survey came forth that indicated that many, if not most Americans choose to live in areas where others look and think as they do. I guess it’s a pretty safe bet that we have relatives who are not exposed to a variety of viewpoints. Are you obligated to present a different narrative? That’s an individual choice. Personally, I pop off any chance I get. 

"Is that what they tell you on Fox News these days?"

Actually, it's FOX, CNN, MSNBC, and OANN that I watch Drummerboy... And, in the real world (where I live), on the day Trump was to meet with Schumer and Pelosi, he called them out for who they are, and like the 71 year old man he is, he got it right. Come on, the STICKS AND STONES RULE APPLIES HERE... I guess the truth was too much for them to handle. Listen, everyone had to recognize what idiots those two were to miss out on that opportunity...

Think about it... They had a chance to sit across from the POTUS in front of the whole world (more or less) and call him out, debate him on the issues, and like 7 year old children, they picked up their marbles, and went home. NO BALLS, NO BRAINS, and NO CHANCE TO PROMOTE THEIR AGENDA. STUPID IS AS STUPID DOES!

PS: IMHO, this applies to every politician, or democrat who is unwilling to fight for what they believe in. Sitting on the side lines, not showing up, or just resisting, is losing by default...

PSS: To keep this thread out of the political section, let me add that 4 of our 7 children are left wingers; and we love them all the same... ;-)

ah, I see. You mean part of the Art of the Deal is to publicly humiliate the other side immediately prior to meeting with them?

What page is that on?

ajc said:

"Is that what they tell you on Fox News these days?"

Actually, it's FOX, CNN, MSNBC, and OANN that I watch Drummerboy... And, in the real world (where I live), on the day Trump was to meet with Schumer and Pelosi, he called them out for who they are, and like the 71 year old man he is, he got it right. Come on, the STICKS AND STONES RULE APPLIES HERE... I guess the truth was too much for them to handle. Listen, everyone had to recognize what idiots those two were to miss out on that opportunity...


Think about it... They had a chance to sit across from the POTUS in front of the whole world (more or less) and call him out, debate him on the issues, and like 7 year old children, they picked up their marbles, and went home. NO BALLS, NO BRAINS, and NO CHANCE TO PROMOTE THEIR AGENDA. STUPID IS AS STUPID DOES!

PS: IMHO, this applies to every politician, or democrat who is unwilling to fight for what they believe in. Sitting on the side lines, not showing up, or just resisting, is losing by default...

PSS: To keep this thread out of the political section, let me add that 4 of our 7 children are left wingers; and we love them all the same... ;-)

ajc - do you really think Trump wanted Chuck and Nancy there for anything other than a political prop - if so - I have a wall to sell you.  Wait nevermind - you know who's paying for that.

The main problem with Trump is his blatant lying - can you point to a true statement he's said in the last few days?

kthnry said:

ajc, can you give us some examples  of when Trump has tried to work with Democrats?

...you can't be serious? Just Google it, there are literally dozens of examples. Can you give me one example where he refused to try and work with Democrats?

boomie said:

flimbro said:

I don't agree with the idea of staying quiet. Every single day is an opportunity for growth and understanding. I think we all have a responsibility to expand our horizons and perspectives to include new ideas and thoughts. The 'newly enlightened' should engage their relatives politely and respectfully. That's how the world changes. 

Not really.   That's not really how the world changes.

Reminds me of this Planck quote:

“A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.”

On the other hand, how were the "newly enlightened" enlightened? Change is hard, but I don't believe it's impossible - unless you never bother trying.

I'd also note it goes both ways -- listening is as important as talking. Can we expect people to change if we're not open to being changed ourselves?

Jamie, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you, your lovely wife, and your whole family...

To your question, the answer is yes, I really think Trump wanted Chuck and Nancy there to discuss the issues. Anyway, does it really matter what Trump wanted? Can't those two hold their own? Please, why can't they forget their own political correctness limitations, and take every opportunity to mix it up with the Trumpster. At this point, there is so much to get done

The main problem with all politicians is their blatant lying - - - Forget about true statements from any of them, just deal with the reality and the facts. Who the hell cares what they say; it's all about what they do, and in case you haven't noticed, everyday Trump is doing, and doing, and doing; and the Democrats are doing absolutely nothing but sitting on the side lines like a bunch of little school children crying over their spilled milk...

drummerboy said:

ah, I see. You mean part of the Art of the Deal is to publicly humiliate the other side immediately prior to meeting with them?

What page is that on?

ajc said:

"Is that what they tell you on Fox News these days?"

Actually, it's FOX, CNN, MSNBC, and OANN that I watch Drummerboy... And, in the real world (where I live), on the day Trump was to meet with Schumer and Pelosi, he called them out for who they are, and like the 71 year old man he is, he got it right. Come on, the STICKS AND STONES RULE APPLIES HERE... I guess the truth was too much for them to handle. Listen, everyone had to recognize what idiots those two were to miss out on that opportunity...


Think about it... They had a chance to sit across from the POTUS in front of the whole world (more or less) and call him out, debate him on the issues, and like 7 year old children, they picked up their marbles, and went home. NO BALLS, NO BRAINS, and NO CHANCE TO PROMOTE THEIR AGENDA. STUPID IS AS STUPID DOES!

PS: IMHO, this applies to every politician, or democrat who is unwilling to fight for what they believe in. Sitting on the side lines, not showing up, or just resisting, is losing by default...

PSS: To keep this thread out of the political section, let me add that 4 of our 7 children are left wingers; and we love them all the same... ;-)

I'm afraid you're losing your touch Drummerboy... First of all, I'm the Art of the Deal; and you're not addressing the issue. It's Schumer and Pelosi who missed an opportunity to publicly humiliate the president and other party if they can. Lost opportunity, IMHO....

ajc said:

The main problem with all politicians is their blatant lying - - - Forget about true statements from any of them, just deal with the reality and the facts. Who the hell cares what they say; it's all about what they do, and in case you haven't noticed, everyday Trump is doing, and doing, and doing; and the Democrats are doing absolutely nothing but sitting on the side lines like a bunch of little school children crying over their spilled milk...

Seriously - truth doesn't matter anymore - facts don't matter?  This is why it's tough to talk politics with family.

Merry Christmas to you and your family also!

Art - We have met IRL. I know you to be a reasonable person and a good and kind soul. I also know that if someone insulted you publicly prior to a scheduled meeting, that you would be very reluctant about going ahead with the scheduled meeting.  What I don’t understand at this point is how you are still supporting Trump. 

ajc said:

"Is that what they tell you on Fox News these days?"

Actually, it's FOX, CNN, MSNBC, and OANN that I watch Drummerboy... And, in the real world (where I live), on the day Trump was to meet with Schumer and Pelosi, he called them out for who they are, and like the 71 year old man he is, he got it right. Come on, the STICKS AND STONES RULE APPLIES HERE... I guess the truth was too much for them to handle. Listen, everyone had to recognize what idiots those two were to miss out on that opportunity...


Think about it... They had a chance to sit across from the POTUS in front of the whole world (more or less) and call him out, debate him on the issues, and like 7 year old children, they picked up their marbles, and went home. NO BALLS, NO BRAINS, and NO CHANCE TO PROMOTE THEIR AGENDA. STUPID IS AS STUPID DOES!

PS: IMHO, this applies to every politician, or democrat who is unwilling to fight for what they believe in. Sitting on the side lines, not showing up, or just resisting, is losing by default...

PSS: To keep this thread out of the political section, let me add that 4 of our 7 children are left wingers; and we love them all the same... ;-)

Hi Sweetsnuggles,

I sorry but I don't know who you are by your mol name, but I thank you anyway for the compliment. I do try hard to be a good person, and I already answered earlier in this thread why I continue to support Trump. Like most things in life, there's most often a means to an end. Trump for me is the means to the end I seek. Trust me, it's about his agenda; and not about him personally... He is in many ways an embarrassment, and in other ways a gift to the world in a time where I believe we need to put America first, and political correctness aside...

It's not a perfect world, and sometimes it takes thick skin to get by. If you want to know how I would react to being insulted, look no further than here on MOL. I would guess I would be near, if not on the top of the list of most insulted and ridiculed for my politics, and sadly they even attack me as a person. However, you will NEVER see me back away from a fight, yet often find I'm the first to apologize when I'm wrong. Seasons Greetings...

Sweetsnuggles said:

Art - We have met IRL. I know you to be a reasonable person and a good and kind soul. I also know that if someone insulted you publicly prior to a scheduled meeting, that you would be very reluctant about going ahead with the scheduled meeting.  What I don’t understand at this point is how you are still supporting Trump. 

People who continue to support Trump are just plain old racists. No other explanation. If it weren’t for racism, he would not be president. There’s no premise on which a rational person could defend the absolute ninkampoopery that’s going on. It’s all an emotional reaction to the perceived end of white supremacy, and Trump’s willingness to sacrifice all logic to appeal to that sentiment.

ahh, I get it now. So Trump's approach in this deal making was actually to set up the other side so that they could make him look foolish.

That's just effing brilliant!

Is that what you do in your business dealings?

I'm afraid you're losing your touch Drummerboy... First of all, I'm the Art of the Deal; and you're not addressing the issue. It's Schumer and Pelosi who missed an opportunity to publicly humiliate the president and other party if they can. Lost opportunity, IMHO....

like shootin' fish in a barrel.
keep on servin' them up.

The below quotes remind me of the following quote from the late Chris Hitchens:

I learned that very often the most intolerant and narrow-minded people are the ones who congratulate themselves on their tolerance and open-mindedness.

annielou said:

People who continue to support Trump are just plain old racists. No other explanation. If it weren’t for racism, he would not be president. There’s no premise on which a rational person could defend the absolute ninkampoopery that’s going on. It’s all an emotional reaction to the perceived end of white supremacy, and Trump’s willingness to sacrifice all logic to appeal to that sentiment.

jamie said:

Seriously - truth doesn't matter anymore - facts don't matter.  This is why it's tough to talk politics with family.

Merry Christmas to you and your family also!

annielou said:

Somewhere within the frantic efforts to “explain” our recent apocalyptic election, a survey came forth that indicated that many, if not most Americans choose to live in areas where others look and think as they do. I guess it’s a pretty safe bet that we have relatives who are not exposed to a variety of viewpoints. Are you obligated to present a different narrative? That’s an individual choice. Personally, I pop off any chance I get. 

eliz said: We can have different opinions about trade, the deficit, taxes, and other "political" issues. There is no opinion on being a white supremacist/neo nazi. No matter why you say you voted for Trump, there is no getting away with the fact that you were okay with voting for a racist. So that says something about you that many people (including relatives) can no longer stomach. Fortunately, there are no Trump voters in my family. I have a friend who voted for him and has posted some very questionable Breitbart stuff. His feelings are hurt because I haven't reached out to him since before the election. The fact is my family is not white and I won't have someone in my home who voted for someone who purposefully stirs up racial animosity and puts my loved ones in danger. Full stop.