Can Trump pardon himself?
But if the Vice President shot the President (in let's say the White House) wouldn't the Veep still be subject to indictment in the District of Columbia.
TomR
Tom_R said:
But if the Vice President shot the President (in let's say the White House) wouldn't the Veep still be subject to indictment in the District of Columbia.
TomR
Federal district, federal crime, federal pardon.
I think that also applies to military reservations and U.S. territories.
tjohn said:
gerritn said:The problem with Trump, of course, is that he has no respect for Constitutional norms, respect for the rule of law, and simple decency.
nohero said:God help us all
GL2 said:Constitutional norms, respect for the rule of law, and simple decency.
Serious question - who stops him?
Which wouldn't be a problem if the Congress had respect and decency.
You gentlemen discussing the hypothetical may want to read this. Click the link for the whole discussion.
https://balkin.blogspot.com/2018/06/riggs-v-palmer-on-presidential-self.html
"[T]he president of the United States is murdered in Washington, DC. Suspicion falls on the former Vice-President, now President of the United States. Five witnesses, all of whom pass lie detector tests, claim to have seen the new President gun down the old occupant of the White House. The new President’s fingerprints are found on the murder weapon. Before further investigation, however, the new President exercises his power as Chief Executive and pardons himself. Aware that the Speaker of the House is a member of the other party, partisan members of Congress stall off impeachment. They insist that the former Vice-President has a right to the office, even if he has murdered the old President, because the Constitution mandates that the Vice President take office upon the death of the President, no matter what. They justify the pardon on the same basis."
The concept of pardoning oneself contradicts the very definition of "pardon".
LOST said:
The concept of pardoning oneself contradicts the very definition of "pardon".
[cough cough] Pardon me.
Tom_Reingold said:
LOST said:[cough cough] Pardon me.
The concept of pardoning oneself contradicts the very definition of "pardon".
You are not pardoning yourself. You are asking the other party to pardon you.
LOST said:
Tom_Reingold said:You are not pardoning yourself. You are asking the other party to pardon you.
LOST said:[cough cough] Pardon me.
The concept of pardoning oneself contradicts the very definition of "pardon".
True. The very notion of self-pardoning makes me furious. And lots of others. But I know that this is deliberate. Trump likes to infuriate people, to shake things up.
nohero said:
GL2 said:Constitutional norms, respect for the rule of law, and simple decency.
Serious question - who stops him?
Unfortunately, I can't think of a "Plan B".
Maybe I'm being dramatic, but I don't see rule of law and decency winning the day. We've watched the GOP Congress retreat into their collective shell (as yahoo yahoo suggests). So much for decency.
So he pardons himself and what happens? Drawn out legal case which takes years to decide? Meanwhile, he continues in office.
Ain't gonna be like Nixon with GOPers telling him it's time to go. Then there's the white militant mob which supports him. I may be wrong but I think Trump suggested (during campaign) that his troops would revolt if there was any attempt to "rig" the election. Does he call on them to take to the streets?
BG9 said:
Tom_R said:Federal district, federal crime, federal pardon.
But if the Vice President shot the President (in let's say the White House) wouldn't the Veep still be subject to indictment in the District of Columbia.
TomR
I think that also applies to military reservations and U.S. territories.
I had been under the impression that the District of Columbia had it's own penal code, separate and apart from Title 18 of the U.S.C.. I know that the District has it's own police force, prosecutors and Courts.
Military reservations: I'm pretty sure that military personnel are subject to the U.C.M.J.; and non-military personnel, to local laws.
U.S. territories: I never gave it much thought, but, I'd be surprised if Guam doesn't have its own penal laws. Who knows?
TomR
LOST said:
The concept of pardoning oneself contradicts the very definition of "pardon".
Exactly the point I argued recently. A self pardon, isn't that an oxymoron?
Tom_Reingold said:
True. The very notion of self-pardoning makes me furious. And lots of others. But I know that this is deliberate. Trump likes to infuriate people, to shake things up.
He sure does. But the people he is riling up most are democrats and independents. I know it makes him feel better, but isn't that counterproductive with the mid terms coming up? I also don't understand why they are now attacking Obamacare again, just before the mid terms, it is only going to drive up democratic turnout.
Tom_R said:
BG9 said:I had been under the impression that the District of Columbia had it's own penal code, separate and apart from Title 18 of the U.S.C.. I know that the District has it's own police force, prosecutors and Courts.
Tom_R said:Federal district, federal crime, federal pardon.
But if the Vice President shot the President (in let's say the White House) wouldn't the Veep still be subject to indictment in the District of Columbia.
TomR
I think that also applies to military reservations and U.S. territories.
Military reservations: I'm pretty sure that military personnel are subject to the U.C.M.J.; and non-military personnel, to local laws.
U.S. territories: I never gave it much thought, but, I'd be surprised if Guam doesn't have its own penal laws. Who knows?
TomR
The U.S. Department of Justice maintains exclusive authority to pardon federal crimes. Because the District of Columbia is a federal District, DC crimes are federal crimes, thus in order to have a DC crime expunged one must seek a presidential pardon. The DC Code does grant the mayor the power to pardon crimes, however, the U.S. department of justice has interpreted this as applying to only municipal violations.
https://xpunge.me/presidential-pardon-dc/
Under the Constitution, only federal criminal convictions, such as those adjudicated in the United States District Courts, may be pardoned by the President. In addition, the President's pardon power extends to convictions adjudicated in the Superior Court of the District of Columbia and military court-martial proceedings. However, the President cannot pardon a state criminal offense. Accordingly, if you are seeking clemency for a state criminal conviction, you should not complete and submit this petition. Instead, you should contact the Governor or other appropriate authorities of the state where you reside or where the conviction occurred (such as the state board of pardons and paroles) to determine whether any relief is available to you under state law. If you have a federal conviction, information about the conviction may be obtained from the clerk of the federal court where you were convicted.
https://www.justice.gov/pardon/pardon-information-and-instructions
He doesn't even have to sit in the WH. He can sit in a suite in his D.C. Trump hotel and happily shoot passerby's under his theory that he can self-pardon his crime.
GL2 said:
So he pardons himself and what happens? Drawn out legal case which takes years to decide? Meanwhile, he continues in office.
That's not how it would play out. No one has "standing" to file suit. It's all hypothetical but the only way it plays out is if the former President is indicted after he leaves office. His attorneys move to dismiss the indictment on the grounds that the former POYUS was pardoned. The Court then rules on the legality of the pardon.
That makes sense. Thanks for the clarification. I can sleep better at night.