DUMP TRUMP (previously 2020 candidates)

Yeah, I was being sloppy. My bad. 

I’ve been home for a couple days with some flu like illness. That’s why I have been posting so much. 

nohero said:
I assume that you'll be relying on your fellow New Jerseyans to make sure that Trump doesn't get our electoral votes.  You're welcome.

Well, to understand Klinker's point of view I take it to a more extreme argument.  If Harvey Weinstein was the Democratic nominee would you vote for him in a race against Trump? (Not Harvey Fierstein - because that would be awesome).  I'm not saying Biden is in the same realm as Weinstein (I'm sure some people have already started replying), and I know he wouldn't get nominated, but take a look at it from the perspective.

It's an interesting mental exercise to try to understand the Republican voters who voted for Trump in 2016.

Klinker said:
I’ve votes in every election I have been eligible for but Biden is a bridge too far. The man creeps me out. 

 I'm really surprised you're taking the Trumpian route to oppose Biden (name calling) instead of the policy route.  Did not expect this from you.  

Could you please share us the list of women who accused Biden of going "Too far".  That is what the "Hands off" and "creeps me out" it referencing to - correct?  Also can you point out your prior posts where you didn't like his actions as Vice President - or where you opposed Obama for picking him?

I think you misread my posts. While I have deep policy disagreements with Biden, i’ve voted for worse over the years. 

What I cannot tolerate is his dishonesty, his history of plagiarism, his lack of respect for the personal autonomy of those around him and his ingrained sexist world view. Add to that the fact that he seems incapable of learning from his mistakes, even when they are pointed out to him over and over again and you have a walking, talking, grabbing disaster. 

I’m not endorsing that sort of insanity with my vote.  If Biden is the nominee, my vote will help no one because we will have already lost. 

nohero said:

Klinker said:
I’ve votes in every election I have been eligible for but Biden is a bridge too far. The man creeps me out. 

I assume that you'll be relying on your fellow New Jerseyans to make sure that Trump doesn't get our electoral votes.  You're welcome.

 Nope. If Biden is the nominee, we have already lost. Your vote won’t make a difference. 

Fortunately it is still very early. With any luck, Biden will be gone by California, if not NH. 

Klinker said:
What I cannot tolerate is his dishonesty, his history of plagiarism, his lack of respect for the personal autonomy of those around him and his ingrained sexist world view. Add to that the fact that he seems incapable of learning from his mistakes, even when they are pointed out to him over and over again and you have a walking, talking, grabbing disaster. 

 Ok, in regards to the "Grabbing disaster" can you please provide a list of the victims and what he did exactly.  I can't find any posts from you during the Franken grabbing debacle.  You're avatar IS "Hands off" - so you must have indisputable proof that this caused trauma to a number of victims.

I’m not suggesting the man is sexually assaulting  women, I am just pointing out that he can’t stop himself from touching people without their permission. That, in and of itself, is concerning and deeply creepy to many people. What is more concerning is that he can’t seem to stop himself, even though he has pledged to do so and apparently is regularly reminded by his staff. 

The fact that he won’t learn ought to be disqualifying. The fact that he apparently can’t learn is even more alarming. 

Klinker said:
I’m not suggesting the man is sexually assaulting  women, I am just pointing out that he can’t stop himself from touching people without their permission. That, in and of itself, is concerning and deeply creepy to many people. What is more concerning is that he can’t seem to stop himself, even though he has pledged to do so and apparently is regularly reminded by his staff. 

The fact that he won’t learn ought to be disqualifying. The fact that he apparently can’t learn is even more alarming. 

 Please list the victims who have called for him to step down because of this.

jamie said:

Klinker said:
I’m not suggesting the man is sexually assaulting  women, I am just pointing out that he can’t stop himself from touching people without their permission. That, in and of itself, is concerning and deeply creepy to many people. What is more concerning is that he can’t seem to stop himself, even though he has pledged to do so and apparently is regularly reminded by his staff. 

The fact that he won’t learn ought to be disqualifying. The fact that he apparently can’t learn is even more alarming. 

 Please list the victims who have called for him to step down because of this.

Why?  I am calling for him to step down because, for me, it is utterly unacceptable. You should call for him to step down because he is unelectable. 

Klinker said:
I’m not suggesting the man is sexually assaulting  women, I am just pointing out that he can’t stop himself from touching people without their permission. That, in and of itself, is concerning and deeply creepy to many people. What is more concerning is that he can’t seem to stop himself, even though he has pledged to do so and apparently is regularly reminded by his staff. 


The fact that he won’t learn ought to be disqualifying. The fact that he apparently can’t learn is even more alarming. 

 All right, in the spirit of a lively discussion of the candidates, have there been situations where he has inappropriately touched people since the initial accusations and his online quasi-apology?

And no fair bringing up the clueless exchange he had with that 13-year-old girl and her brothers.  That is a whole different ball of wax. Touching incidents only please.

Klinker said:

The fact that he won’t learn ought to be disqualifying. The fact that he apparently can’t learn is even more alarming. 

 My problem with Biden is that he can't seem to admit being wrong about anything.  And for jeebus' sake, from the Iraq War, to the crime bill, to his support for financial institutions over consumers, he's been really, really wrong on a lot of stuff that has hurt regular working class people.  And he doesn't seem to have any awareness of how his role in the neoliberal establishment has screwed the people he needs to vote for him in order to become president.

If you're a 27 year old with a "gig economy" job, $75,000 in student loan debt, and now you're not on your parents' health insurance and you can't afford the co-pays and deductibles if you get sick, what does Joe Biden have to offer you?  Aside from his not being the malignant narcissist in the White House, what does he offer to this generation of young people?

ml1 said:
Aside from his not being the malignant narcissist in the White House, what does he offer to this generation of young people?

See my earlier post re: prime rib.  It's hard to put too high a value on "Not being Donald Trump."

If this slate of candidates was running against Nikki Haley or John Kasich I might have a different take on all of this.

Well, the very next day he had his hands on some woman at one of his events. He made a big joke out of it because he is so stupid he thought it was funny. 

A couple of days later he had his hands on a ten year old’s shoulders as he told her that her intelligence was proportional to her beauty. And it goes on and on.... 

dave said:
 Why not list military service?  Who gives a fig about sports?

Chill out. It's just a list dave. 

Klinker said:
Well, the very next day he had his hands on some woman at one of his events. He made a big joke out of it because he is so stupid he thought it was funny. 

A couple of days later he had his hands on a ten year old’s shoulders as he told her that her intelligence was proportional to her beauty. And it goes on and on.... 

Can you include video - can you let us know their quotes on how they felt violated by him after the incident?  

jamie said:

Klinker said:
Well, the very next day he had his hands on some woman at one of his events. He made a big joke out of it because he is so stupid he thought it was funny. 

A couple of days later he had his hands on a ten year old’s shoulders as he told her that her intelligence was proportional to her beauty. And it goes on and on.... 

Can you include video - can you let us know their quotes on how they felt violated by him after the incident?  

 I think I made myself clear above. It’s not about how any one person felt about being touched, its about touching people without their permission. 

I’m not quite sure why this is so hard for you to grasp. Even Biden claimed to understand it before continuing on his merry way. 

mrincredible said:
See my earlier post re: prime rib.  It's hard to put too high a value on "Not being Donald Trump."
If this slate of candidates was running against Nikki Haley or John Kasich I might have a different take on all of this.

we are looking through a different prism than the people who are likely going to decide this election.  Young people and people of color went overwhelmingly for Clinton in 2016.  Just not enough of them voted.

And if your life is a daily struggle just to make ends meet, and one emergency might send you into bankruptcy, Trump in the White House is the least of your problems.  

I feel very lonely when I post these sentiments on this site.  I know a few of you IRL, and I suspect that the median age of people posting here is probably around 55.  I am getting the distinct impression that a lot of you have no real concept of what matters to people under the age of 30, and why the likes of Joe Biden is not likely to motivate them, and why Trump isn't as scary to them as their everyday economic reality is.

mrincredible said:
See my earlier post re: prime rib.  It's hard to put too high a value on "Not being Donald Trump."
If this slate of candidates was running against Nikki Haley or John Kasich I might have a different take on all of this.

 Not me. Haley was a Trump supporter and reliable "conservative" on every issue. Kasich is marginally better but is terrible on abortion.

Klinker said:
I’ve been home for a couple days with some flu like illness. That’s why I have been posting so much. 

 Hope you feel better.

But if one has a choice between having the flu and having cancer one would choose the flue. So that is why having a choice between Biden and Trump should lead one to vote for Biden.

mrincredible said:
Well, to understand Klinker's point of view I take it to a more extreme argument.  If Harvey Weinstein was the Democratic nominee would you vote for him in a race against Trump?

 Would Harvey Weinstein take a four month old baby away from his parents and ship him far away? Would he call people marching under a Nazi Flag "very fine people"?

Because Trump is actually President even those who can't stand him seem not to be able to understand how truly evil and destructive he is.

If this country re-elects Trump then this country deserves what it gets and sensible people should start talking about things like Californexit or emigration to Canada.

ml1 said:
If you're a 27 year old with a "gig economy" job, $75,000 in student loan debt, and now you're not on your parents' health insurance and you can't afford the co-pays and deductibles if you get sick, what does Joe Biden have to offer you?  Aside from his not being the malignant narcissist in the White House, what does he offer to this generation of young people?

 I'm meh on Biden but his offer is status quo on the overall strong economy of the past 10 years, without the malignant narcissism of the current WH, and without a sharp turn to progressivism that many voters (including me) do not want. 

To be honest I'm not sure he can bring it given his warts and his age and the fact that he's not Obama, but that is what he represents.   

ml1 said:
 
I feel very lonely when I post these sentiments on this site.  I now a lot of you IRL, and I know that the median age of people posting here is probably around 55.  I am getting the distinct impression that a lot of you have no real concept of what matters to people under the age of 30, and why the likes of Joe Biden is not likely to motivate them, and why Trump isn't as scary to them as their everyday economic reality is.

 If you are talking about White people under 30 you have a point. But if Trump is not frightening to Black or brown people under 30 they have not been paying attention.

LOST said:

mrincredible said.

If this country re-elects Trump then this country deserves what it gets and sensible people should start talking about things like Californexit or emigration to Canada.

 And that is why I am urging people to ditch Biden. Stop that mistake before it even happens. That is, after all, what the primaries are all about. 

LOST said:
 If you are talking about White people under 30 you have a point. But if Trump is not frightening to Black or brown people under 30 they have not been paying attention.

 This sentiment is exactly what costs the Dems victories. People of color would be crazy not to vote against Trump so we can take them for granted and nominate a white, geriatric party tool with a questionable history on race. 

ml1, thanks for your comments.  

Where do you get your perspective on the under-30 crowd?  I don't know you in real life, so I have no idea how old you are.

I'll counter with this: given what's going on with reproductive rights at the state level, are you sure that women under 30 don't have something to fear from another 4-year Trump presidency, including an even greater likelihood he'll get to replace at least Ruth Bader Ginsberg?

I understand what your saying about economic reality, but women's rights are deeply threatened by his continued presence in the Oval Office.

I'm sticking with my argument that "just getting rid of Trump" is a deeply motivating goal. Not the only one by any means.  But I'm open to further convincing.

Klinker said:
 I think I made myself clear above. It’s not about how any one person felt about being touched, its about touching people without their permission. 

I’m not quite sure why this is so hard for you to grasp. Even Biden claimed to understand it before continuing on his merry way. 

It's such faux outrage - the Republicans and Anti-Biden crowd love it.  

LOST said:

mrincredible said:
See my earlier post re: prime rib.  It's hard to put too high a value on "Not being Donald Trump."
If this slate of candidates was running against Nikki Haley or John Kasich I might have a different take on all of this.

 Not me. Haley was a Trump supporter and reliable "conservative" on every issue. Kasich is marginally better but is terrible on abortion.

You make a fair reply but I don't think either would make a mockery of the Justice Department the way Trump has and trash the law to try and stay out of trouble.

But here's my point: I think a strategy of tacking center would be much less likely to be successful against either of those two.  I think my mind would be more made up that a more Progressive platform would be successful.  

To put it this way, I am not sure a Bidenesque candidate would win against Trump but maybe could.

I'm pretty sure such a candidate would do poorly with Haley or Kasich.  (Especially Haley ... a pro-life woman who was governor of a key Southern state, who can claim that she took the Confederate flag off the state house (Don't bring up details about that ... we're talking campaign flyer/ad/Twitter rhetoric here (if you don't think that stuff swings elections you haven't been paying attention))).

Klinker said:

LOST said:
 If you are talking about White people under 30 you have a point. But if Trump is not frightening to Black or brown people under 30 they have not been paying attention.

 This sentiment is exactly what costs the Dems victories. People of color would be crazy not to vote against Trump so we can take them for granted and nominate a white, geriatric party tool with a questionable history on race. 

 That is not what I was saying. I was replying to a post that said:

ml1 said:

And if your life is a daily struggle just to make ends meet, and one emergency might send you into bankruptcy, Trump in the White House is the least of your problems.  
I feel very lonely when I post these sentiments on this site.  I know a few of you IRL, and I suspect that the median age of people posting here is probably around 55.  I am getting the distinct impression that a lot of you have no real concept of what matters to people under the age of 30, and why the likes of Joe Biden is not likely to motivate them, and why Trump isn't as scary to them as their everyday economic reality is.

 What is Joe Biden's "questionable history on race"?

LOST said:
If this country re-elects Trump then this country deserves what it gets and sensible people should start talking about things like Californexit or emigration to Canada.

Canada has a tougher immigration policy than the USA.

jamie said:

Klinker said:
 I think I made myself clear above. It’s not about how any one person felt about being touched, its about touching people without their permission. 

I’m not quite sure why this is so hard for you to grasp. Even Biden claimed to understand it before continuing on his merry way. 

It's such faux outrage - the Republicans and Anti-Biden crowd love it.  

 I don’t know what to say to that. My outrage is “faux”?  I guess there isn’t much more for you and I to discuss here.