DUMP TRUMP (previously 2020 candidates)

drummerboy said:

I guess I don't understand how being "inclusive" of a group of voters is different than "catering" to them. 

 would you consider the connotation of "catering to" to be negative?

Yeah, that's true. But, the word not withstanding, I'm not sure you can be inclusive of a group of voters without directly addressing their issues - i.e. catering to them. How else do you "include" them?

drummerboy said:

Yeah, that's true. But, the word not withstanding, I'm not sure you can be inclusive of a group of voters without directly addressing their issues - i.e. catering to them. How else do you "include" them?

Given all that's going on in this country, why would there NOT be some sort of specific outreach to African American concern, as well as the concerns of all the working people ravaged by the pandemic?  I don't see why it's controversial at all to suggest that needs to be done on top of the "we have to get rid of Trump" message.

Many of you seem in denial that there may be potential Democratic voters who stay home this year, regardless of how stupid or evil you think it will be.  I'm saying they need to have a positive reason beyond dumping Trump.  I'm not sure why this would be in dispute.

ml1 said:

Given all that's going on in this country, why would there NOT be some sort of specific outreach to African American concern, as well as the concerns of all the working people ravaged by the pandemic?  I don't see why it's controversial at all to suggest that needs to be done on top of the "we have to get rid of Trump" message.

I hate to have to say this to Mr. Ml1, but it's necessary this time - read the news.

Joe Biden Listens to Anguish at a Black Church in Delaware

The event Monday morning, at Bethel African Methodist Episcopal Church, was part listening session, part campaign speech and part forum for members of Wilmington’s black community to express their collective anguish.
...
When Mr. Biden finally stood up to speak, he quoted the philosopher Soren Kierkegaard — “‘Faith sees best in the dark,’” he said, “and it’s been pretty dark” — before condemning President Trump for, he said, publicly legitimizing the racism that protesters are fighting against.

Earlier in his career, “I thought we could actually defeat hate,” Mr. Biden said. “What I realized — not just white supremacy, but hate — hate just hides. Hate just hides. It doesn’t go away. And when you have somebody in power who breathes oxygen to the hate under the rocks, it comes out from under the rocks.”

Mr. Biden added that he did not take black voters for granted and that he was putting together a detailed set of policy proposals to address their concerns. He also said he believed the events of the past few months would force more Americans to confront institutionalized racism.

nohero said:

 I have to ask then why db keeps arguing with me on this.

ml1 said:

Given all that's going on in this country, why would there NOT be some sort of specific outreach to African American concern, as well as the concerns of all the working people ravaged by the pandemic? I don't see why it's controversial at all to suggest that needs to be done on top of the "we have to get rid of Trump" message.

To the extent that it’s controversial, I’d say it’s because of this: the perception that one group’s concerns are in competition for attention and resources with others, and that addressing them is zero-sum politics. (An example would be an argument that “catering to” African-Americans or all the working people ravaged by the pandemic could cost votes from “moderate” whites.)

ml1 said:

Many of you seem in denial that there may be potential Democratic voters who stay home this year, regardless of how stupid or evil you think it will be.  I'm saying they need to have a positive reason beyond dumping Trump.  I'm not sure why this would be in dispute.

 Maybe, or maybe not. At this point Trump is such an utterly polarizing figure, and the loathing of him outside his base is so visceral, that a dump-Trump platform may just be enough. I don’t know why you’re so certain it wouldn’t be.

ml1 said:

nohero said:

 I have to ask then why db keeps arguing with me on this.

 I think you give others the impression that you want Biden to do something other than outreach like this.

Smedley said:

ml1 said:

Many of you seem in denial that there may be potential Democratic voters who stay home this year, regardless of how stupid or evil you think it will be.  I'm saying they need to have a positive reason beyond dumping Trump.  I'm not sure why this would be in dispute.

 Maybe, or maybe not. At this point Trump is such an utterly polarizing figure, and the loathing for him outside his base is so visceral, that a dump-Trump platform may just be enough. I don’t know why you’re so certain it wouldn’t be.

 How many people's perception of Trump has changed since 2016 now that they have seen him in office?  Did people really think that he would settle into the Presidency?  That his executive experience and know-how would really make America great again?  That he was going to bring back clean coal and manufacturing or accomplish  middle east peace?  I think the number is pretty small.  I think it's much smaller than we NEED it to be.  

I just watched the tail-end of Bidens speech from Philly. from the bit I saw it was a great speech. I am sure he will continue to make mistakes, but I think he is a good candidate. He is genuine and he cares. And I am sure I won't always agree with him, but I believe he will always try to do the right thing.

Red_Barchetta said:

 How many people's perception of Trump has changed since 2016 now that they have seen him in office?  

 I have no way to do a count, but I know it can start with my father.

Red_Barchetta said:

Smedley said:

ml1 said:

Many of you seem in denial that there may be potential Democratic voters who stay home this year, regardless of how stupid or evil you think it will be.  I'm saying they need to have a positive reason beyond dumping Trump.  I'm not sure why this would be in dispute.

 Maybe, or maybe not. At this point Trump is such an utterly polarizing figure, and the loathing for him outside his base is so visceral, that a dump-Trump platform may just be enough. I don’t know why you’re so certain it wouldn’t be.

 How many people's perception of Trump has changed since 2016 now that they have seen him in office?  Did people really think that he would settle into the Presidency?  That his executive experience and know-how would really make America great again?  That he was going to bring back clean coal and manufacturing or accomplish  middle east peace?  I think the number is pretty small.  I think it's much smaller than we NEED it to be.  

 Nobody has a count, but I think there were plenty of people who never liked trump , but voted for him because they saw him as the less bad option versus an opponent with high unlikeability ratings. Those people who were skeptical of trump but didn’t loathe trump, now loathe trump, and for all his flaws, Biden is a much less polarizing and more likeable candidate than hillary was. Add it up and dump-trump wins.

nohero said:

 I think you give others the impression that you want Biden to do something other than outreach like this.

 I think what he's doing is the start of what I've been suggesting. So to that extent it validates my POV. 

Smedley said:

 Maybe, or maybe not. At this point Trump is such an utterly polarizing figure, and the loathing of him outside his base is so visceral, that a dump-Trump platform may just be enough. I don’t know why you’re so certain it wouldn’t be.

There are still people saying they may not vote. I don't know how widespread it really is. But after 2016, shouldn't it be at least worthy of being on the campaign's radar? And it seems like maybe it is. 

ml1 said:

nohero said:

 I think you give others the impression that you want Biden to do something other than outreach like this.

 I think what he's doing is the start of what I've been suggesting. So to that extent it validates my POV. 

 Actually, it's a continuation of what he's been doing.

Certainly Biden wants to GOTV and offer something positive. But from his campaign’s perspective, I don’t think there’s any free lunch. If Biden starts embracing progressive stuff like green new deal, free college, reparations, etc. then he’ll GOTV but he’ll also lose votes. I don’t know which number would be higher, but I personally believe the further left he goes, the worse the vote tradeoff gets.

Smedley said:

Certainly Biden wants to GOTV and offer something positive. But from his campaign’s perspective, I don’t think there’s any free lunch. If Biden starts embracing progressive stuff like green new deal, free college, reparations, etc. then he’ll GOTV but he’ll also lose votes. I don’t know which number would be higher, but I personally believe the further left he goes, the worse the vote tradeoff gets.

the labels are problematic.  But anything called "pandemic relief" will probably be more popular than not.  Especially if the Senate refuses any aid to states.  If we get to September and across the country millions of cops, firefighters and teachers are laid off, who knows how far left will be acceptable.

I continue to be surprised at the "conventional wisdom" about what Democrats "should" do doesn't seem to be affected one bit by the cataclysmic economic, health and social catastrophe that the pandemic has wrought.  I don't pretend to know for certain that it's changed how far left the country wants to go.  But I also don't see how anyone can be so sure it hasn't.  What we're living through is unprecedented.

Smedley said:

ml1 said:

Many of you seem in denial that there may be potential Democratic voters who stay home this year, regardless of how stupid or evil you think it will be.  I'm saying they need to have a positive reason beyond dumping Trump.  I'm not sure why this would be in dispute.

 Maybe, or maybe not. At this point Trump is such an utterly polarizing figure, and the loathing of him outside his base is so visceral, that a dump-Trump platform may just be enough. I don’t know why you’re so certain it wouldn’t be.

Not only is dump Trump enough, I think at this point it's the only issue that matters. Honestly, by now if there's any voter that needs to be coaxed into voting for Biden, they're not worth the effort. 

I don't see how they can be reached in any efficient manner of campaigning. It's like trying to convince a Trumpist to vote for Biden.

And not for nothing, I still contend that this supposed bloc of voters might not even exist. Pundits seem to like to talk about them, but where are they exactly? Who are they exactly? How many of them are there?

drummerboy said:

Smedley said:

ml1 said:

Many of you seem in denial that there may be potential Democratic voters who stay home this year, regardless of how stupid or evil you think it will be.  I'm saying they need to have a positive reason beyond dumping Trump.  I'm not sure why this would be in dispute.

 Maybe, or maybe not. At this point Trump is such an utterly polarizing figure, and the loathing of him outside his base is so visceral, that a dump-Trump platform may just be enough. I don’t know why you’re so certain it wouldn’t be.

Not only is dump Trump enough, I think at this point it's the only issue that matters. Honestly, by now if there's any voter that needs to be coaxed into voting for Biden, they're not worth the effort. 

I don't see how they can be reached in any efficient manner of campaigning. It's like trying to convince a Trumpist to vote for Biden.

And not for nothing, I still contend that this supposed bloc of voters might not even exist. Pundits seem to like to talk about them, but where are they exactly? Who are they exactly? How many of them are there?

 I don't know about its relevance to winning votes, but what a candidate campaigns on does impact how they govern. See eg https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/trust-us-politicians-keep-most-of-their-promises/

A lot of the commentary around electoral strategy generally reads to me as actually disguised policy advocacy -- less "candidate X should push my issues and reach out to my group of voters because that'll win more votes" and more "candidate X should push my my issues and reach out to my group of voters because I want them to govern in a way that supports the things that are important to me." And maybe that's ok? I'm not all that convinced, for instance, that there's a lot of votes to be mined by Biden going after more progressive voters, but that doesn't mean it makes no sense for progressive voters to ask Biden to move their way.

PVW said:

 I don't know about its relevance to winning votes, but what a candidate campaigns on does impact how they govern. See eg https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/trust-us-politicians-keep-most-of-their-promises/

A lot of the commentary around electoral strategy generally reads to me as actually disguised policy advocacy -- less "candidate X should push my issues and reach out to my group of voters because that'll win more votes" and more "candidate X should push my my issues and reach out to my group of voters because I want them to govern in a way that supports the things that are important to me." And maybe that's ok? I'm not all that convinced, for instance, that there's a lot of votes to be mined by Biden going after more progressive voters, but that doesn't mean it makes no sense for progressive voters to ask Biden to move their way.

 I'll admit there's a portion of me advocating for policies I think are best.  But at the risk of re-re-re-repeating myself, in the times that we now face, doesn't it seem that a massive, massive economic and public health initiative is exactly what the country needs?  Are we living in a time in which most voters are going to respond to timid, half-measures?  Again, I don't know for sure that we are, but I'm pretty sure that if the way forward in this country is Mitch McConnell's vision, we are ******.

drummerboy said:

And not for nothing, I still contend that this supposed bloc of voters might not even exist. Pundits seem to like to talk about them, but where are they exactly?

If you recall from two days ago, some of them were in Columbia, S.C. (in an article that was inaccurately described as “what one writer is prescribing as the way for Biden to be successful”).

Black Americans Have a Message for Democrats: Not Being Trump Is Not Enough

DaveSchmidt said:

If you recall from two days ago, some of them were in Columbia, S.C. (in an article that was inaccurately described as “what one writer is prescribing as the way for Biden to be successful”).

Black Americans Have a Message for Democrats: Not Being Trump Is Not Enough

good luck 

ml1 said:

good luck 

DaveSchmidt said:

 

 I often feel more like Cassandra ;-)

Black people and others protest the police murders of Black people. Across for the White House the protests were peaceful.  Trump's response is to call out the Military to chase away the protesters so  he could walk to a Church and waive a Bible in front of it.

But "not being Trump" is not enough? Go figure.

Are statements like this not enough?

“When peaceful protesters [are] dispersed in order for a president — a president — from the doorstep of the ‘People’s House’ — the White House — using tear gas and flash grenades in order to stage a photo op — a photo op — on one of the most historic churches in the country, or at least in Washington, D.C., we can be forgiven for believing the president is more interested in power than in principle,” Biden said. “More interested in serving the passions of his base than the needs of the people in his care.”

The presumptive Democratic presidential nominee added that although Trump “held up the Bible at St. John’s Church yesterday, I just wish he opened it once in a while instead of brandishing it. If he opened it, he could have learned something.”

DaveSchmidt said:

drummerboy said:

And not for nothing, I still contend that this supposed bloc of voters might not even exist. Pundits seem to like to talk about them, but where are they exactly?

If you recall from two days ago, some of them were in Columbia, S.C. (in an article that was inaccurately described as “what one writer is prescribing as the way for Biden to be successful”).

Black Americans Have a Message for Democrats: Not Being Trump Is Not Enough

And the odds of Biden winning S. Carolina are what? How much effort should he put in to trying to win S.C.?  How does zero sound? You kinda make my point.

And how was mine an inaccurate description?

ETA: re-reading the piece, I'm dead on with my description.

drummerboy said:

And the odds of Biden winning S. Carolina are what? How much effort should he put in to trying to win S.C.?  How does zero sound? You kinda make my point.

You’re absolutely right. Fifty states were combed to find opinions like those, and only a few South Carolinians came through. 

STANV said:

Black people and others protest the police murders of Black people. Across for the White House the protests were peaceful.  Trump's response is to call out the Military to chase away the protesters so  he could walk to a Church and waive a Bible in front of it.

But "not being Trump" is not enough? Go figure.

 https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/?ex_cid=rrpromo

STANV said:

Are statements like this not enough?

“When peaceful protesters [are] dispersed in order for a president — a president — from the doorstep of the ‘People’s House’ — the White House — using tear gas and flash grenades in order to stage a photo op — a photo op — on one of the most historic churches in the country, or at least in Washington, D.C., we can be forgiven for believing the president is more interested in power than in principle,” Biden said. “More interested in serving the passions of his base than the needs of the people in his care.”

The presumptive Democratic presidential nominee added that although Trump “held up the Bible at St. John’s Church yesterday, I just wish he opened it once in a while instead of brandishing it. If he opened it, he could have learned something.”

 I'm listening to it right now. He sounds good. Of course he already had my vote.