1 South is closed...

cramer said:
Boccone South is packed Saturday evenings. It's one of the best restaurants in the area. I hope that we don't lose it if and when the the Blockbuster space is developed. 

 Is that the place with a handwritten sign in the front window informing “sorry, no pizza tonight” and this the same sign has been there for years? I roll my eyes every time I walk past. Never dined there and have zero desire. 

Smedley said:
Yeah F/F has a shot, time will tell.
Upon further review, I guess Gaslight has to be considered a successful NA restaurant, given its longevity. It takes a lot of flak, and I'm not a fan, but they've been there for almost 15 years I think, so they must be doing something right.   

 1998. 20+ yrs now.

mrincredible said:
Fair enough but Arturo's is small and enjoys the mystique of exclusivity. I'm not sure their formula would translate to a place the size of One South. 
Would people want to go to Arturo's if it was easy to get into?   

I do believe the mystique helps Arturo's.

And maybe my idea is too restrictive.  But my overall point is that a diner menu with four or five pages is not what a fine dining establishment should be aiming for.  Maybe 8-10 entrees and a couple of daily specials.  But whatever it is, if the menu has focus, the kitchen can deliver on what they do best.  And perhaps most crucially, a customer should expect fresher ingredients if the menu is more focused.

So, family-friendly places in business forever with large menus in South Orange (my own experience):

1. Bunny's
2. Toro Loco
3. Gaslight*
4. Trattoria
5. Ariyoshi 
6. Reservoir

*jury out on family-friendly status 

I'd love people to fill out that list, make one for Maplewood too.

What are the successful long lived places that have a smaller, more curated menu? I'm interested. We have a vocal group of people who are genuinely seeking such dining options.

oots said:
its too bad-a tough space to get to etc.  maybe the beer garden should go there.  no movement at the old town hall.

 It's ironic that you would say this I think. They actually have their own parking available behind the building underneath the apartment building that's back there. I can't think of any other restaurants in town that have their own parking. Most other places rely on metered parking.

mrincredible said:
So, family-friendly places in business forever with large menus in South Orange (my own experience):

1. Bunny's
2. Toro Loco
3. Gaslight*
4. Trattoria
5. Ariyoshi 
6. Reservoir

*jury out on family-friendly status 


I'd love people to fill out that list, make one for Maplewood too.
What are the successful long lived places that have a smaller, more curated menu? I'm interested. We have a vocal group of people who are genuinely seeking such dining options.

Lorena's currently has 8 entrees on the menu.  Verjus has about the same.  The Boccone menu has a lot of pasta dishes, but only 8 entrees.

If a place is catering to families and big groups, they can be successful with a menu that has a ton of options, with a lot at low price points.

But I thought the idea for a space like 1 South was more upscale, with high end food and more premium prices.  If they want to be the equivalent of Charlie Brown's my ideas would be wrong.  All you can eat salad bar, and three pages of comfort food on the menu and you're good to go.

HudsonBlue said:

cramer said:
Boccone South is packed Saturday evenings. It's one of the best restaurants in the area. I hope that we don't lose it if and when the the Blockbuster space is developed. 

 Is that the place with a handwritten sign in the front window informing “sorry, no pizza tonight” and this the same sign has been there for years? I roll my eyes every time I walk past. Never dined there and have zero desire. 

I've never noticed the sign, but they used to have thin crust pizza Mondays-Fridays. Not on Saturdays because they are too busy. They no longer have pizza because their venting system would have to be upgraded to comply with code and they probably thought it wasn't worth it. It's a wonderful restaurant and you should try it sometime.  As I said, it's one of the best in the area. 

haven’t been to the asterisk in years.  nay.  decade and years.  but for good reason.  a leopard doesnt change its spots.

I think "forever" is an important distinction. People opening larger places today - The Cassidy, Fox and Falcon, Luna Stella and whatever is going into S.O. village hall - have significantly larger investments (rent, renovations, liquor licenses) than folks who started out years ago, so it's natural that they're going to make different decisions on their offerings, including being at a higher price point. It's also smart for them to say, Bunny's etc. already do X and Y, there's no reason for us to replicate that.

I find it disappointing when I see threads on Fox and someone inevitably says, "I miss Stuff'd Shirt" (presumably because it was cheaper and had a broader, more casual menu). I imagine when Luna Stella opens, people will compare it to HP. These places really have little to do with each other, except for being at the same address at different times.

Regarding Above and 1 South, who knows, but it seems the folks running those places didn't have the skills and/or market knowledge to keep such big places afloat.

apple44 you're absolutely right. I doubt the owners of Toro Loco paid 500K for their liquor license, for instance.

I'm unschooled in running a restaurant other than having worked as a waiter in college (if you went to Chi Chi's in Lancaster PA in the late 80s maybe I served you your chimichanga!) so whatever I say is pure conjecture. But it's got to be a big challenge getting a large restaurant off the ground these days and strike that balance between appealing to a broad spectrum of the local populace but maintaining a particular level of food quality and service, while making enough to stay in business. 

mrincredible said:
apple44 you're absolutely right. I doubt the owners of Toro Loco paid 500K for their liquor license, for instance.
I'm unschooled in running a restaurant other than having worked as a waiter in college (if you went to Chi Chi's in Lancaster PA in the late 80s maybe I served you your chimichanga!) so whatever I say is pure conjecture. But it's got to be a big challenge getting a large restaurant off the ground these days and strike that balance between appealing to a broad spectrum of the local populace but maintaining a particular level of food quality and service, while making enough to stay in business. 

I admitted way earlier that I don't know the business.  I just know that as a customer, I'm not alone in wanting to have my expectations met.  I go to Bunny's I want a pie and a beer.  I don't expect a sublime experience.  And I also expect to pay relatively little.  But if I go to the Cassidy, I want an upscale experience with a quality of food that matches the price.  There's plenty of room for both.  I don't think there's a restaurant in Maplewood I haven't tried, and most of them I go to on a regular basis.  And the ones I don't, like Arturo's and Abril Cocina, are because they are always packed (so they don't need my business).

But if we're talking about a space with a liquor license, a bar, and a large outdoor patio, I think we're talking upscale (and with it, a higher price point).  And over the past twenty years or so, restaurants all over the country have upped their game so much that it's not likely that anyone can succeed as a higher end restaurant with anything mediocre on the menu.  So for the 1 South space, I'd expect high end food that delivers, regardless of what type of food it is.  And if it was me, I'd make sure I had a good strong, focused menu, wine list, and beer list.

ml1, I think we’ve arrived at a point where further debate between you and me is pointless. 

I think we agree that we’d both like to see a successful restaurant open in that space. I’m not at all opposed to your vision of what you’d like to see, but I think we disagree on what’s likely to be successful.  We both come from a position of not being restaurant business insiders, but both of us have experienced a pretty broad sample of dining in the area.

Time will tell.

We used to go to Gaslight whenever my Friday night flight home was delayed (= quite frequently).  The service was so horrendous (= non-existant), that we swore off that establishment entirely.  

Thus, it is one of the 3 names on our never again list.

mrincredible said:

I'm unschooled in running a restaurant other than having worked as a waiter in college (if you went to Chi Chi's in Lancaster PA in the late 80s maybe I served you your chimichanga!) so whatever I say is pure conjecture. But it's got to be a big challenge getting a large restaurant off the ground these days ...

 Now you've got me imagining a Good N Plenty in the 1South space.

And I look at your avatar and know in an instant who could get a large restaurant off the ground.

mrincredible said:

oots said:
its too bad-a tough space to get to etc.  maybe the beer garden should go there.  no movement at the old town hall.

 It's ironic that you would say this I think. They actually have their own parking available behind the building underneath the apartment building that's back there. I can't think of any other restaurants in town that have their own parking. Most other places rely on metered parking.

 perhaps represents more my personal view.  i hate that parking lot/ garage- unless i'm in a tiny car-those concrete columns intimidate me.