Whole house water softener questions

Living in South Orange, we have issues with hard water.  I have been considering a whole house water softener for some time, mostly due to the cloudy glassware.  The inside of our dishwasher is coated with calcium deposits.  I have a legacy supply of dishwasher detergent with phosphate, but it only helps a little.  The real issue is the hard water.  So I have a couple of questions.

If you live in South Orange and have installed a whole house water softener, has it resolved the cloudy dishware problem?

If you live in a surrounding town and get NJ American Water, do you have any issues with hard water? 

I know South Orange is moving away from our current water provider in a few years.  I am just trying to make a choice among two options.  Either install a water softener now, if the hard water situation will not improve after the supplier change, or suck it up with cloudy glassware for a while and then expect things to get better with the new provider.  Thanks for your feedback.

We are in south orange with a whole house softener.   It does make a difference with the dishes and I'm hoping with all of  our appliances.  We buy salt at costco, about 15 bags per year @ 5$ per bag.

We have had a whole house water softener, leased from Jayson, for years,. It definitely makes an appreciable difference; glassware and shower doors are clear, and not cloudy,  dishes are cleaner, clothes are softer, hair feels like hair, not like straw.  

Appliances last longer, fixtures, i.e, faucets and sinks are free of mineral deposits.  We order o0urn salt from Jayson..  It costs more, but they deliver it and haul the bags to the basement, and pour it into the tank.

I would be interested to know what a lease from a company like Jayson runs?  

We lease ours from Jayson for $170 a year.

still_life said:

I would be interested to know what a lease from a company like Jayson runs?  

Knowing that Consumer Reports says that one should expect to replace the dishwasher around 8 years, and using Cascade Complete  or "Platinum" pouches, our dishwasher works relatively well. However, the hard water definitely takes its toll on showers, faucets, in addition to dishwashers.  

I do not live in South Orange and did not have a water softener when I lived in Maplewood, but I do now live in a community with hard water where everyone has a water softener. We had one installed by the local water-softener company shortly after we moved in; it was essentially a necessity to preserve the water heater and I know it supposedly protects appliances as well. I can’t tell if the glasses and dishes look any different coming out of the dishwasher here than they did in our old house. The water softener we have is not leased--it is a permanent fixture, which we own. My recollection is that it cost about $1,200 all told. We have had it for about four years, so I think if it lasts another few years we will probably have come out head in terms of lease-versus-buy but I don’t think leasing was an option in this area anyway. As far as maintenance: The company that installed it comes every three months to deliver the salt and put it in the softener. Cost varies by how many bags we need but it is usually about $30 and worth it to avoid going into a crawlspace that is accessible via ladderlike stairs. 

I'm in SO.  We installed a whole-house softener about 6 months after we moved in (after the kitchen faucet handle snapped off in my hand and I saw the huge amount of mineral buildup around the interior of the handle), and noticed the difference right away as to dishes, appliances, skin, shower glass door, etc.  When we run out of salt, it's noticeable.  We leased from Jayson for the first year b/c they let you apply the entire monthly amount to the principal, and then paid it all off.  I've been wondering the same thing about the switch to NJAW - my sense (from anecdata) is that Maplewood's water is hard, but not as much as SO.  I'll be interested to see what others say.

Back when we lived in S. Orange, we initially rented a unit from Jayson because that was what the prior owners used.  It was expensive over time, so we decided to buy.  We ended up buying a unit through Culligan and over the years, switched to Jayson for salt delivery.  (I think we bought through Culligan because Jayson would only sell us the unit we'd been renting and I wanted to own a unit that was brand new.)

After moving to W. Orange 6 years ago, we bought a new unit through Jayson and they deliver our salt as needed.

After WAY TOO MUCH research on the cloudy glasses issue while living in S. Orange, WITH softened water, I can tell you the following:

Cloudy glassware is due to one of two issues: ETCHING is due to too soft water (as well as a combo of too long wash cycle, too hot water and too much detergent), which is permanent.  You will have to live with the nasty look of them or toss them.  This was my situation when living in S. Orange.

Cloudy glasses due to a buildup of FILM due to hard water, is easily determined by putting vinegar-soaked paper towels on the inside and outside of your glassware for about 15 minutes.  If the cloudiness can then be washed away, you only have a film to deal with which saves replacement of your glasses, but means a lot of soaking hand-washing.  If you have hard water, you can prevent the buildup by hand washing all glassware, OR you can try to lower the water temp of your dishwasher water to a max of 140 degrees, use a rinse additive, and pre-rinse high protein foods from your dishes before washing.  You can also try using more detergent, although I suspect that too much may cause etching, so take care.

Cloudiness due to etching comes from a combo of conditions.  Fancy European washers use less water, longer cycles and hotter water to get your dishes clean while presumably saving the environment through less water use that typical American washers use.

Also, dishwasher detergents in the US are made to be used in lots of at least slightly hard water, and is meant to clean in a shorter amount of time, so using them with European washers means they are too harsh on all your dishes.  You should use a max of a teaspoon for a very full load of dirty dishes when you wash with soft water - less for a less-full load.  If you pre-rinse all your stuff before running the load, the detergent will be even more harsh on your dishes since it has no food to work on instead.

After moving to W. Orange, I still wanted a whole house water softener, but also wanted to use a dishwasher to wash every dish/glass/pan possible, so this was my solution during a renovation project:

I had the plumber bypass the water softener to supply only COLD water to my Miele Dishwasher that has a built-in softener that only slightly softens the water to an ideal level of 5 grains of hardness.  I let the dishwasher heat the water to the correct cycle temp rather than supply it with hot water.  The water in your hot water heater is too hot for a dishwasher cycle.  (You are supposed to keep your hot water heater temp hot enough to kill bacteria (especially Legionnaire's disease bacteria!), about 130-140 degrees Fahrenheit - but you need anti-scald devices at the point of use at this temps, especially with young kids/older adults!)  I buy special salt to add to my dishwasher's built-in softener so it can soften the wash water.  

To wash a load of glasses, including my bottom-of-the-line-but-still-nice Riedel stemware, I use the dishwasher's "Fine China/crystal" setting, which washes at a much cooler and shorter run than the "Normal" cycle I use for my regular dishes and flatware.  I've actually washed a few regular dishes and pots in the washer when running that cycle for glasses and the items get clean, so perhaps you could get away with that cycle for every load - not sure.  Regardless of the load, I use a max of one teaspoon of detergent in a cycle.  This means sometimes I have to hand-wash a utensil or a pot that didn't get perfectly clean, but isn't a huge project like hand washing all the glassware would be, so I live with it.  For those worried about sterilization in the dishwasher, my machine creates steam in the "dry" cycle to heat the clean dishes, so they get plenty hot after they are clean.  If you open the washer right away after it is finished, the water is supposed to evaporate as a drying method.  This method fails with plastics and upon opening the machine, I use a dish towel to mop up any standing water and allow the rest to air-dry before putting them away.

Full disclosure: After all the above, I have recently seen a tiny bit of clouding on some stemware, but that is after 6 years.  I haven't bothered to try to clean it with vinegar, since it wasn't too bad and I actually forgot about it until writing this tome.

Good luck!

Thanks @cupoftea !  Was there a price for installation?   

We had put one in our other South Orange home- bought a softener from Sears and had a plumber install for about $1100 total. 

 In our new place we installed an Aquasana whole house water filtration unit and descaler for a lot of money. Either the descaler doesn't work AT ALL or our water is just so bad it can't handle it.  We just had to replace our dishwasher and I wouldnt be surprised if our shower handle breaks off soon.

We are also having to change the filters for the filtration part of the unit way more frequently then we were told we'd have to---- which is costly!  anyways, thinking about ditching the whole Aquasana unit and going back to a regular water softener which made a huge difference in our old home.  Just hate to go spend a ton more money! 

I wonder though- if you just lease- you could potentially get rid of it if the water improves a great deal after the switch..?? 

@still_life 

I also used the Aquasana whole house filtration units (did in S. Orange and also here in W. Orange.  In fact, very recently replaced the entire tank units at great expense, since their life is limited.

Their method of water "softening" wasn't offered back when I bought and I remain very skeptical about chemically being able to soften water without either salt or potassium exchange for the minerals.

While you may actually need to scrap their softening system, I stand by their whole house water filtration and have some evidence to support that.

We have need for a lot of distilled water and I got sick of having to buy it by the gallon, so I bought a counter-top home-distillation unit.  

I found a LOT of brown yucky residue in the bottom of the unit after it had finished making a gallon of distilled water.  I tested my theory that my household water that had been filtered with the Aquasana unit was "dirtier" than it should be.  At the time of our renovation, I also had the plumber by-pass the whole house filter AND the water softener to supply cold water to my kitchen sink instant hot and cold water dispenser as well as my freezer ice maker.  I wanted to have minerals in that water for taste/health reasons and instead filtered it using Everpure filters.  I used the same municipal water that supplies my Aquasana, but was filtered through the Everpure filter only, to make a gallon of distilled water.  The residue after that gallon was much, much cleaner than what had passed through the Aquasana.  

Then, I called Aquasana and ultimately arranged for replacement of the entire tank units and distilled a gallon of water from that filtered water source and the residue was very clean!  Clearly, we should have changed our units out after 5 years as recommended at that time rather than at 6 years.  (The units they make now have much more capacity and actually cost me less today than I spent on lower capacity units 6 years ago.)

So, I am not a scientist, but based on the above experience I am confident that the Aquasana unit is very effective at cleaning the water to our entire household, as long as the pre-filters are changed regularly AND when the entire tank system is replaced on schedule.

We got a whole house softener when we did some renovations about 7.5 years ago.  It made a huge difference in how our dishes came out (we had horrible cloudiness on our glassware), the scaling that built up around our faucets on our sinks, tub, etc.,   It was an amazing difference.  Our dishwasher's motor still bit the dust after only 3 years and we replaced it.  Our repair guy said even with the water softener, the S.O. water was SO bad we should still use glass magic in the DW (which had been our method with dealing with the scum on the glasses before the water softener) to protect the DW itself.   So, that was comforting. 

The DW broke again last year (after 7 years of use, and 4 years after the new motor) so we just got a new DW and I am making an effort to clean it on a regular basis (running it empty with a DW cleaner or vinegar).   All that said, I think the water softener is a must for SO - even if we do get a new water source.   I think I'd get one anywhere in NJ to be honest. 

I also have a reverse osmosis system at my kitchen sink with a separate faucet and I use that water for cooking and drinking, so that further cleans the softened water of the salt, and residual crud. 

We don't have a softener but keep tossing around the idea. I didn't realize leasing was so affordable, so we may very well consider that. Seems like it would take at least 6 years to recoup the cost with purchasing vs. leasing.

In terms of dishwashing, this is what works for us: a glug of vinegar in the bottom, running the dishwasher on the High Temp setting, and rinse aid. If we do all of the above we don't notice a film on our dishes.

I put my softener in myself, as well as a whole house filter.  Each unit cost me about $300, and took me a total of 4 hours to install, so I am way ahead on the curve of lease vs buy.  One plumber told me the unit wasn't high quality and wouldn't last, but I'm past 4 years, so I'm not to worried.  The filter is for particulates and dirt, not for nasty chemicals.  I drink plenty of tap water, though, and it tastes fine to me.

Did it DIY, the softener cost 500$ and about 100-200$ for parts.   It was quite simple, I used push on Sharkbite connectors for everything and it took probably 6 hours over a couple days...I had to re-do a couple things...

No more cloudy dishes.     

If you havent done the water softener yet, a tablespoon or two of citiric acid powder (a food ingredient readily available on Amazon) also works wonders.

Yes, in South Orange it makes a HUGE difference.  once you have a water softener, you can use much less detergent in the washer and dishwasher for sure.

Ordered this unit online -- this company has great reviews and I'd highly recommend

http://apluswater.org/Fleck%207000%20SXT%20Water%20Softeners.html

Installed by local plumber, but I don't recall the cost anymore.  There was an old water softener that had stopped working, but all the valves/ etc were also corroded and all that was replaced, too.  Maybe $5-600?   I do a lot of DIY, but there were so many valves, by passes (including for watering the lawn), to me this really required a professional!!

Rinse aid in dishwasher seems to work for hard water. Does anyone have a concern with the sodium a softener adds to the water? The calcium and other minerals in water might be good for you. There are filter cartridges called scale filters which can be put on the hot water feed line which may alleviate the issue with water heaters. Otherwise, it might be cheaper to hire a maid to come in once a month to clean your faucets.

Some one once mentioned  that each town hall should be able to furnish you a copy of water quality reports.  That would seem the place to start.  You may find that you also want to include some sort of filtration system.  The report could also be a springboard into choosing the right size system for your family.  A plumbing supply house, such as Palmer, has experience and may be able to answer questions.

Some years ago I asked someone in the know about a softener for MW home.  I was told that guy's parents were still resding here and he felt comfortable with their NOT having a softener.

Has anyone tried electronic descalers like the one below:

http://www.amazon.com/Scalewatcher-Nano-Electronic-Descaler-Water-Alternative/dp/B00B1GF7X2/ref=sr_1_5?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1430271949&sr=1-5&keywords=electronic+descaler

I wonder about them too. I have never heard anyone in the know recommend them.

YES. And one notices a difference if it runs out of salt. Corrosion happens fast, on everything. You can rent one instead of buying from Culligan or Jayson.

Rob_Sandow said:

s.

If you live in South Orange and have installed a whole house water softener, has it resolved the cloudy dishware problem?