The Rose Garden and White House happenings: Listening to voters’ concerns
one of the saddest stories I have ever read about a city. Reading the article and some comments, I was struck by the word,”conservatorship” as a solution. Back in the day, way back, mentally ill people could be placed in custody, evaluated, and treated. Drugged or drunk, they were similarly given a place to stay while undergoing evaluation or treatment. There was a “mental” hospital on Staten Island which turned out to be a total horror and quickly, across America, the rights of the individual surmounted the collective rights of the public. Conservatorship might just be a nicer sounded word, but perhaps it is a beginning.
Too bad. We need to spend our money on weapons so we can tell the rest of the world what to do. And if we have any leftover money, we need to spend it on tax cuts for the rich.
if you read the article, you see that SF already spends $70M annually to flush urine and feces off the sidewalks. Talk about flushing money down the drain! 
mtierney said:a
if you read the article, you see that SF already spends $70M annually to flush urine and feces off the sidewalks. Talk about flushing money down the drain!
What is your proposal then. Put homeless people in camps? Shoot them? Deport them? Maybe we should just build another 13 billion dollar aircraft carrier which may or may not be able to withstand a barrage of anti-ship missiles.
mtierney said:
if you read the article, you see that SF already spends $70M annually to flush urine and feces off the sidewalks. Talk about flushing money down the drain!
You want to know where money is flushed down the drain? NYC.
NYC is paying over 100 million a year for police misconduct. Does that bother you? Or not, because they are the fine boys in blue, unlike the dirty grubby homeless?
That bothers me more. Because police are supposedly to be professionals who get a pretty nice salary. I expect more from them than from homeless, many who are seriously ill.
mtierney said:
one of the saddest stories I have ever read about a city. Reading the article and some comments, I was struck by the word,”conservatorship” as a solution. Back in the day, way back, mentally ill people could be placed in custody, evaluated, and treated. Drugged or drunk, they were similarly given a place to stay while undergoing evaluation or treatment. There was a “mental” hospital on Staten Island which turned out to be a total horror and quickly, across America, the rights of the individual surmounted the collective rights of the public. Conservatorship might just be a nicer sounded word, but perhaps it is a beginning.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/08/us/san-francisco-dirtiest-street-london-breed.html?rref=collection%2Fissuecollection%2Ftodays-new-york-times
It was your hero, Reagan, who de-institutionalized the mentally ill and dumped them on the streets.
neither of the posters who responded understood my post!
Only I,it seems, has real concern for the homeless, the medically ill, those substance abusers, and the resulting loss of quality of the life of this city’s population in general.
I am looking for suggestions/solutions, ideas.
Isn't it time that these helpless people get help to get off the streets and into safe, clean rooms with working toilets and good food?
Does it require
agencies of the city
get the right to take them off the streets against their wills if necessary in order to help them?
Are there any public toilets in Maplewood and South Orange?
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
And there is no political will to spend money on homeless and severely impoverished people.
mtierney, conservative governments won’t help people with these needs ‘help themselves’ unless they can pay for it; they don’t believe it’s the role of government to provide these services especially for conditions that are preventable (alcohol, addictive drugs, behaviour-related conditions) or signs of character (if you just tried harder, you could be a better person). That’s why they keep cutting funding for the programs that do exist - existing programs are like juicy carrots, tempting people to become dependent and not self-reliant.
SF spends a ton of money just on beautification — washing away the sight and stench from the night before. Some $70M annually. Who does that effort benefit? The sober and employed who have to walk those streets on the way to work?
Read recently that thousands of beds in nursing homes are empty. Many factors are involved in this fact. Better health care for the elderly , allowing them stay at home, the growth industry that is home health care, assisted living facilities, etc.
Literally overnight these beds could be filled and there would be evaluations of those picked up off the streets under safe, clean, protection. Medicaid would provide the funds.
Some might require long term stays, some might be relocated with families, etc. other agencies would provide job training (in house), and employment opportunities. From what the article reveals, some of the homeless are dangerous and need to be off the street for the protection of others.
Before anyone complains that someone’s granny or her family would raise a fuss over this mixed-use set-up, they could be reassured that the elderly would not be crowded out, but the home itself would be enriched with improvements which would improve the overall environment.
ETA: this is the article I referred to — I had posted in my senior thread. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/28/health/nursing-homes-occupancy.html?rref=collection%2Fsectioncollection%2Fscience
As a health advocate, I can tell you the administrative side of those programs is Hell. The reasons those beds are empty is because it’s almost impossible to meet the funding criteria to fill them, not because there’s no demand. The paperwork is deliberately onerous and at cross-purposes, to keep numbers low and budgets small.
SF spends that money so that tourists still come, and so that shoppers still come. People complain strongly about their rates and taxes being used for this purpose, they want other programs, because the $$ For street cleaning are coming from other needed areas.
mtierney said:
SF spends a ton of money just on beautification — washing away the sight and stench from the night before. Some $70M annually. Who does that effort benefit? The sober and employed who have to walk those streets on the way to work?
Read recently that thousands of beds in nursing homes are empty. Many factors are involved in this fact. Better health care for the elderly , allowing them stay at home, the growth industry that is home health care, assisted living facilities, etc.
Literally overnight these beds could be filled and there would be evaluations of those picked up off the streets under safe, clean, protection. Medicaid would provide the funds.
Some might require long term stays, some might be relocated with families, etc. other agencies would provide job training (in house), and employment opportunities. From what the article reveals, some of the homeless are dangerous and need to be off the street for the protection of others.
Before anyone complains that someone’s granny or her family would raise a fuss over this mixed-use set-up, they could be reassured that the elderly would not be crowded out, but the home itself would be enriched with improvements which would improve the overall environment.
ETA: this is the article I referred to — I had posted in my senior thread. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/28/health/nursing-homes-occupancy.html?rref=collection%2Fsectioncollection%2Fscience
hmm. sounds pretty socialist-y to me.
Joanne, status quo cannot be the solution. What hasn’t worked in the past needs to be made to work. If these spaces exist and are empty for whatever reasons, they could serve as quick solutions to getting lasting help for street people. I would not minimize the obstacles. If ever there was a non-partisan solution to excite Democrats and GOPers to show their constituents that they are all grown up and ready to earn their salaries!
Sorry, I had to go out.
The programs were set up to fail under conservative government's, to prove their ideology that this isn't the way to 'support' health/ageing/poverty/addictive/mental health/name the social need. Strangely enough, under a slightly less tight-fisted political ethos, that's more ground-up in its consultation and really waits for proper results to flow in, we get actually definitive effective measures and community communications about needs & responses, new directions and growth in self-reliance.
It's just that conservatives rarely are patient enough to wait for the full cycle to evolve; their desire for profits after 12 months to demonstrate self-sustainability doesn't work with 'organic wetware' (ie unpredictables like people).
joanne said:
It's just that conservatives rarely are patient enough to wait for the full cycle to evolve; their desire for profits after 12 months to demonstrate self-sustainability doesn't work with 'organic wetware' (ie unpredictables like people).
In the United States, Republicans have spent the last 30 years demonizing the poorest and most vulnerable people calling them welfare queens and worse.
tjohn said:
In the United States, Republicans have spent the last 30 years demonizing the poorest and most vulnerable people calling them welfare queens and worse.
More like 50-60 years.
But we are talking about the hardcore homeless, that is , street people. This is a result of deinstitutionalization which(according to the internet) began in 1955 with the widespread introduction of chlorpromazine, commonly known as Thorazine, the first effective antipsychotic medication, and received a major impetus 10 years later with the enactment of federal Medicaid and Medicare.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deinstitutionalisation
In my opinion this was a victory for Libertarians in alliance with Conservatives.
LOST said:
tjohn said:More like 50-60 years.
In the United States, Republicans have spent the last 30 years demonizing the poorest and most vulnerable people calling them welfare queens and worse.
But we are talking about the hardcore homeless, that is , street people. This is a result of deinstitutionalization which(according to the internet) began in 1955 with the widespread introduction of chlorpromazine, commonly known as Thorazine, the first effective antipsychotic medication, and received a major impetus 10 years later with the enactment of federal Medicaid and Medicare.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deinstitutionalisation
In my opinion this was a victory for Libertarians in alliance with Conservatives.
You filled in my recall of the start of the closing psychiatric hospitals. That was the start of doing the wrong thing for the all the right reasons. Many of the facilities were virtual ratholes.
tjohn said:
joanne said:In the United States, Republicans have spent the last 30 years demonizing the poorest and most vulnerable people calling them welfare queens and worse.
It's just that conservatives rarely are patient enough to wait for the full cycle to evolve; their desire for profits after 12 months to demonstrate self-sustainability doesn't work with 'organic wetware' (ie unpredictables like people).
As long as this really childish attitude persists — bickering and playing the blame game — there will be no change.Bloviating and broken promises on both sides of the aisle! The collateral damage are just street people after all— they can’t vote. But our cities will be destroyed.
If this is democracy today, God help us.
tjohn said:
joanne said:In the United States, Republicans have spent the last 30 years demonizing the poorest and most vulnerable people calling them welfare queens and worse.
It's just that conservatives rarely are patient enough to wait for the full cycle to evolve; their desire for profits after 12 months to demonstrate self-sustainability doesn't work with 'organic wetware' (ie unpredictables like people).
President Lyndon B. Johnson once said, "If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you."
I believe Republicans have the same theory about the homeless, the poor, etc. Pretty much all the people Jesus wanted to help.
mtierney said:
This might be funny, but who is laughing?
https://www.judicialwatch.org/press-room/press-releases/judicial-watch-uncovers-more-classified-material-on-hillary-clintons-unsecure-email-system/
One of your many problems is you believe the news from loony right wing web sites. Sites based on fiction.
Instead of wasting your time, you could spend quality time reading fantasy or other fiction novels.
The founder of judicial watch has said the following:
“We know that the birth certificate of Obama is fraudulent, OK, but you say that and you’re branded a racist. You can’t say that on Fox News.”
Klayman joined Goodman to proclaim that it is urgent that citizen grand juries take matters into their own “legal hands” in order to put Hillary Clinton, members of the so-called “deep state,” and the many others who he believes are responsible for federal crimes in jail once and for all. Klayman said at one point during the interview, while discussing the possibility that Clinton could attempt a bid for president again in 2020, that he believed the Clintons hired assassins to kill members of their administration.
“She’s an egomaniac. She’s a megalomaniac and she doesn’t care about that. This is a woman, Jason, and I know this sounds extreme, but 80 people died in and around the Clinton administration. You think it was all law of average? You don’t think they didn’t have some people hit? I believe they did,” Klayman said.
They've been peddling Hillary Clinton email bs for years:
Judicial Watch To Host “Educational Panel Discussion” On The Clinton Foundation, Clinton Emails.Right-wing group Judicial Watch announced a “special panel presentation” they entitled “Clinton Scandal Update – Emails and the Clinton Foundation.” The panel is a response to “the revelations about the pay-to-play scandal” related to Hillary Clinton’s “email system and the Clinton Foundation.” From the September 22 (2016) press release:
https://www.activistfacts.com/organizations/media-matters-for-america/
Thanks for the reference to Media Matters, a George Soros “kool-aid” flavor. It was interesting research for me.
mtierney said:
This might be funny, but who is laughing?
https://www.judicialwatch.org/press-room/press-releases/judicial-watch-uncovers-more-classified-material-on-hillary-clintons-unsecure-email-system/
You do understand that this is a non-issue, don't you.
It was a mistake for HRC to not use proper email mail servers. It was not really unprecedented, however. And I have always said that if the Clinton's had hired, an listened to, an ethics attorney who understood the importance of appearances, she would be President today.
Secondly, nobody has ever been able to claim and the improperly secured "classified" materials ever caused any harm. In other words, no harm done.
gerritn said:President Lyndon B. Johnson once said, "If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you."
I believe Republicans have the same theory about the homeless, the poor, etc. Pretty much all the people Jesus wanted to help.
Same thing. The majority of the Republican base believes that the homeless and poor are almost all Black.
tjohn said:
mtierney said:You do understand that this is a non-issue, don't you.
This might be funny, but who is laughing?
https://www.judicialwatch.org/press-room/press-releases/judicial-watch-uncovers-more-classified-material-on-hillary-clintons-unsecure-email-system/
Most Republicans don't . The Democrats do not yet have a candidate for President, but the Right needs someone to be against. Hillary fits the bill.
Just because I think the origin of the idiom is interesting:
https://brians.wsu.edu/2016/05/22/fit-the-bill-fill-the-bill/
This entire thread is a pointless waste of time. Mtierney has demonstrated time and time again that she is out of touch with reality and borders on dementia. She needs medication and care.
mtierney said:
https://www.activistfacts.com/organizations/media-matters-for-america/
Thanks for the reference to Media Matters, a George Soros “kool-aid” flavor. It was interesting research for me.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_for_Organizational_Research_and_Education
(CORE owns activistfacts.com)
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This Nation did enact the 18th Amendment. The arguments in favor of Prohibition must have been very strong.
It didn't work out so well.