Formerlyjerseyjack said:
W.T.F.?
Internet videos of two N.Y.C. patrol cars driving into a crowd. At least one woman knocked over onto the street.
Woman knocked over by a cop on a horse.
Woman punched by a cop.
Cop pulls mask off a kid - approximately 8 years old. Then sprays the kid in his face.
Stream of national guard marching down a street, shouting at people to get inside their houses. Then shooting projectiles at people on their porch, while shouting, "Light 'em up."
Female nurse working in a make-shift first aid station. She is patching up a protestor who was shot with a rubber bullet. National guard guy tells her to get out of there. She refused because the guy is seriously hurt. N. guard guy then shoots her with a projectile.
About 100 cops close off a K-mart parking lot. Order everyone out of the lot. Then proceed to slash tires of cars in the lot.
Dear Leader has given encouragement to any and all of this crap: "When the looting starts, the shooting starts."
Insane! I have no words for the way it turned out. I think a lot of people have lost sight of the reason the protests started in the first place.
The number of incidents of police acting way out of line is very alarming. Also the number of incidents that have been instigated by outside agitators that are taking advantage of the protests to create anarchy for their own agendas.
There have been instances of cops acting out of line, which is no surprise to me as there’s no shortage of cops out there on power trips who respond violently first and ask questions later. Sadly it’s too often just the culture of the force.
But I’ve also seen a number of heartwarming instances of cops kneeling with protestors, marching with protestors, and just overall respecting and listening to protestors.
Overall, I think the police response to the widespread protests has been reasonable.
overall I think the police response has been one of overreaction and provocation. As I wrote earlier in another thread, on Friday we watched cops in Minneapolis open fire with tear gas at precisely 8PM on a group of protesters silently kneeling with their hands up. Why? Because 8PM was curfew.
So the enforcement of a curfew is tear gassing peaceful protestors. Not reasonable in my book.
Smedley said:
There have been instances of cops acting out of line, which is no surprise to me as there’s no shortage of cops out there on power trips who respond violently first and ask questions later. Sadly it’s too often just the culture of the force.
But I’ve also seen a number of heartwarming instances of cops kneeling with protestors, marching with protestors, and just overall respecting and listening to protestors.
Overall, I think the police response to the widespread protests has been reasonable.
I don't know where you're getting your news from, but the police response has not been reasonable.
ml1 said:
overall I think the police response has been one of overreaction and provocation. As I wrote earlier in another thread, on Friday we watched cops in Minneapolis open fire with tear gas at precisely 8PM on a group of protesters silently kneeling with their hands up. Why? Because 8PM was curfew.
So the enforcement of a curfew is tear gassing peaceful protestors. Not reasonable in my book.
You cite an anecdotal instance to support an overall conclusion.
Broadly speaking, I’m seeing no protests shut down, no deaths of protestors at the hands of police, and few injuries at the hands of police. Anecdotal observations are both good and bad, as one might expect from a movement spanning several dozen cities and many thousands of people.
And as far as the instance you cite, how would you have handled the people out after curfew? Asked them nicely to go home, and if that didn’t work, wait 5 minutes and ask again? Bear in mind there were shots fired at MPD officers a couple days ago.
drummerboy said:
Smedley said:
There have been instances of cops acting out of line, which is no surprise to me as there’s no shortage of cops out there on power trips who respond violently first and ask questions later. Sadly it’s too often just the culture of the force.
But I’ve also seen a number of heartwarming instances of cops kneeling with protestors, marching with protestors, and just overall respecting and listening to protestors.
Overall, I think the police response to the widespread protests has been reasonable.
I don't know where you're getting your news from, but the police response has not been reasonable.
Please elaborate, and with more than anecdotal observations.
Smedley said:
drummerboy said:
Smedley said:
There have been instances of cops acting out of line, which is no surprise to me as there’s no shortage of cops out there on power trips who respond violently first and ask questions later. Sadly it’s too often just the culture of the force.
But I’ve also seen a number of heartwarming instances of cops kneeling with protestors, marching with protestors, and just overall respecting and listening to protestors.
Overall, I think the police response to the widespread protests has been reasonable.
I don't know where you're getting your news from, but the police response has not been reasonable.
Please elaborate, and with more than anecdotal observations.
here's one place to start. And I've seen many more videos on Twitter of police behaving badly.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/05/george-floyd-protests-police-violence.amp
Smedley said:
And as far as the instance you cite, how would you have handled the people out after curfew? Asked them nicely to go home, and if that didn’t work, wait 5 minutes and ask again?
Yup.
Smedley said:
You cite an anecdotal instance to support an overall conclusion.
Broadly speaking, I’m seeing no protests shut down, no deaths of protestors at the hands of police, and few injuries at the hands of police. Anecdotal observations are both good and bad, as one might expect from a movement spanning several dozen cities and many thousands of people.
And as far as the instance you cite, how would you have handled the people out after curfew? Asked them nicely to go home, and if that didn’t work, wait 5 minutes and ask again? Bear in mind there were shots fired at MPD officers a couple days ago.
Is "out after curfew" a tear gassing offense in your book?
If it is then I understand why we're in disagreement over what constitutes a reasonable response.
drummerboy said:
Smedley said:
drummerboy said:
Smedley said:
There have been instances of cops acting out of line, which is no surprise to me as there’s no shortage of cops out there on power trips who respond violently first and ask questions later. Sadly it’s too often just the culture of the force.
But I’ve also seen a number of heartwarming instances of cops kneeling with protestors, marching with protestors, and just overall respecting and listening to protestors.
Overall, I think the police response to the widespread protests has been reasonable.
I don't know where you're getting your news from, but the police response has not been reasonable.
Please elaborate, and with more than anecdotal observations.
here's one place to start. And I've seen many more videos on Twitter of police behaving badly.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/05/george-floyd-protests-police-violence.amp
That’s just a collection of anecdotes, as is this https://twitter.com/i/events/1267221011696504833
and this https://twitter.com/LauraNoonanFT/status/1267269393421082626?s=19
Note the 2 Atlanta cops who tased the people in the car, as highlighted in the Slate piece, have been fired.
ml1 said:
Smedley said:
You cite an anecdotal instance to support an overall conclusion.
Broadly speaking, I’m seeing no protests shut down, no deaths of protestors at the hands of police, and few injuries at the hands of police. Anecdotal observations are both good and bad, as one might expect from a movement spanning several dozen cities and many thousands of people.
And as far as the instance you cite, how would you have handled the people out after curfew? Asked them nicely to go home, and if that didn’t work, wait 5 minutes and ask again? Bear in mind there were shots fired at MPD officers a couple days ago.
Is "out after curfew" a tear gassing offense in your book?
If it is then I understand why we're in disagreement over what constitutes a reasonable response.
You said overall the national police response has been overreaction and provocation , and you cite one instance of tear gas in Minneapolis as the basis for your conclusion. I’ve mentioned that citing anecdotes is an insufficient basis to support a broad conclusion, but you pay no heed so I guess you disagree.
did you see the Camden cops marching with protestors yesterday? This means that cops and communities nationwide are in full harmony and there should be no problems going forward.
Smedley said:
You said overall the national police response has been overreaction and provocation , and you cite one instance of tear gas in Minneapolis as the basis for your conclusion. I’ve mentioned that citing anecdotes is an insufficient basis to support a broad conclusion, but you pay no heed so I guess you disagree.
did you see the Camden cops marching with protestors yesterday? This means that cops and communities nationwide are in full harmony and there should be no problems going forward.
my example is not an "anecdote." It was a planned and coordinated police response in Minneapolis, the center of all of this. It was policy to open fire with tear gas at precisely 8pm on peaceful protesters. It wasn't some rogue cop somewhere beating someone up.
Smedley said:
drummerboy said:
Smedley said:
drummerboy said:
Smedley said:
There have been instances of cops acting out of line, which is no surprise to me as there’s no shortage of cops out there on power trips who respond violently first and ask questions later. Sadly it’s too often just the culture of the force.
But I’ve also seen a number of heartwarming instances of cops kneeling with protestors, marching with protestors, and just overall respecting and listening to protestors.
Overall, I think the police response to the widespread protests has been reasonable.
I don't know where you're getting your news from, but the police response has not been reasonable.
Please elaborate, and with more than anecdotal observations.
here's one place to start. And I've seen many more videos on Twitter of police behaving badly.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/05/george-floyd-protests-police-violence.amp
That’s just a collection of anecdotes, as is this https://twitter.com/i/events/1267221011696504833
and this https://twitter.com/LauraNoonanFT/status/1267269393421082626?s=19
Note the 2 Atlanta cops who tased the people in the car, as highlighted in the Slate piece, have been fired.
a "collection of anecdotes" is data.
does this count as one anecdote or 100?
https://twitter.com/tedstew/status/1267303785887674368?s=20
https://twitter.com/chadloder/status/1267119621951217667
I’m trying hard to not say anything disparaging about police in general, but there’s clearly a systemic problem with law enforcement in this country. And no it didn’t start last week or last year or 3 years ago.
I’m a middle aged middle class white guy and I can see it clear as day. If you can’t - I don’t know what to tell you.
It seems that the use of "non-lethal" weapons by cops is given a pass by a lot of people. They seem to figure that if it's not a firearm it's somehow a "humane" way of crowd control. But a lot of what we've seen by cops this week is intentional infliction of pain (e.g., torture) on people who are not threatening them. Tear gas, pepper spray, tasers, rubber bullets, flash grenades all inflict pain on the targets. And rubber bullets are not harmless. A photographer (an innocent bystander that is) in Minneapolis reported being blinded in one eye by a rubber bullet. Too much of what we're seeing seems to be cops not just trying to keep order, but trying to intentionally cause pain.
RobB said:
https://twitter.com/chadloder/status/1267119621951217667
I’m trying hard to not say anything disparaging about police in general, but there’s clearly a systemic problem with law enforcement in this country. And no it didn’t start last week or last year or 3 years ago.
I’m a middle aged middle class white guy and I can see it clear as day. If you can’t - I don’t know what to tell you.
some people's default is to side with authority.
Including the person you mentioned who was blinded, I saw two other women yesterday who were hit in the face with rubber bullets.
And I forget what town this is from, there is also this. Cops marching down what looks to be a quiet residential street, acting like the gestapo.
In January, South Orange, NJ officials reported that a police officer had been “placed on leave pending a use of force investigation following an incident involving a reported robbery just after midnight on Jan. 22 on Sloan Street.” Today, South Orange posted the video of the incident along with a statement on southorange.org.
The statement reported that an investigation into the officer’s actions by South Orange Police Internal Affairs had been completed and that “the officer has been issued a preliminary notice of disciplinary action seeking the officer’s removal. Pending the outcome of a hearing, the officer will remain suspended.” An earlier review by the Essex County Prosecutor’s Office Professional Standards Bureau determined that criminal charges would not be sought against the officer and referred the matter back to the SOPD for the Internal Affairs investigation.
yahooyahoo said:
In January, South Orange, NJ officials reported that a police officer had been “placed on leave pending a use of force investigation following an incident involving a reported robbery just after midnight on Jan. 22 on Sloan Street.” Today, South Orange posted the video of the incident along with a statement on southorange.org.
The statement reported that an investigation into the officer’s actions by South Orange Police Internal Affairs had been completed and that “the officer has been issued a preliminary notice of disciplinary action seeking the officer’s removal. Pending the outcome of a hearing, the officer will remain suspended.” An earlier review by the Essex County Prosecutor’s Office Professional Standards Bureau determined that criminal charges would not be sought against the officer and referred the matter back to the SOPD for the Internal Affairs investigation.
It's important to note that the investigation was initiated by internal review by the SOPD:
"The SOPD takes all use of force incidents seriously and has a zero tolerance policy toward any violation. The department reviews every use of force incident for compliance and mandates semi-annual training and policy review to ensure its officers are best equipped to handle these situations appropriately."
This is the link to Chief Kroll's statement regarding the death of George Kroll.
http://southorange.org/CivicAlerts.aspx?AID=1940
eta - This is a post on Facebook:
"Thank you Sheena Collum and Donna Coallier for posting Chief Kroll's statement to SO residents. I moved here from Newark a few months ago and immediately noticed a difference in the way officers policed this city. Police presence in my old neighborhood always felt antagonistic and hyper militaristic. I never experienced or witnessed a friendly greeting, much less had one yield to me while crossing a street. I just read Chief Kroll's statement and now it all makes sense. He's set the tone of what policing should look and feel like, and it has trickled down the ranks. As he states, "trust needs to be earned and not expected just because (they) wear a badge." I hope that departments with bad seeds like the Minneapolis 4 will follow Kroll's lead."
SOMA Justice holds a "die In" Protest.
Smedley said:
But I’ve also seen a number of heartwarming instances of cops kneeling with protestors, marching with protestors, and just overall respecting and listening to protestors.
I have too. There are some good cops out there who are being branded as bad just because they wear the uniform. I'm sure you knew when you said it you would face an argument. As my pals from Dublin would say, "Good on ya."
Morganna said:
Smedley said:
But I’ve also seen a number of heartwarming instances of cops kneeling with protestors, marching with protestors, and just overall respecting and listening to protestors.
I have too. There are some good cops out there who are being branded as bad just because they wear the uniform. I'm sure you knew when you said it you would face an argument. As my pals from Dublin would say, "Good on ya."
There are many good cops. But if good cops do nothing to stop bad cops then they will be lumped in with bad cops.
Pointing out the obvious fact that there are good cops all over the country ignores the institutional problems that create a culture of abuse in so many departments. It also glosses over the very real police abuses that have been happening in places like Minneapolis and DC this week. Abuses that are clearly organized and authorized from the top. Sure, hats off to the cops showing solidarity with protesters. But that shouldn't distract us from how much police-initiated terrorism is going on around the country.
D.C. Police Trapped 70 Protesters in a Private Home
Army helicopter uses counterinsurgency tactics after protesters tear-gassed for Trump's photo-op
what's happened in DC was a national disgrace.
But it's not the only place the police have been out of control:
This is not the time to say "but there are lots of good cops." Sure there are. But saying this now only serves as evidence to excuse systemic abuses by law enforcement around the country.
To Our Maplewood Community,
As Chief of the Maplewood Police, I would like to address the horrific murder of George Floyd at the hand of Police Officers in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Firstly, I would like to offer my deepest condolences to the entire Floyd family for their tragic loss. I am personally outraged at this senseless loss of life. This man died as result of an accusation that he passed a counterfeit $20.00 bill. I am having trouble grasping the reality of this situation. If $20.00 is the value of a human life, then nobody is safe. George Floyd was treated without regard for humanity. There are no excuses for what happened to Mr. Floyd. He was handcuffed, held down by multiple officers, one of which had their knee on Mr. Floyd’s neck and made him suffer as he gasped for air and pleaded for help. These officers must be held responsible for their actions including those who just stood by and did not help Mr. Floyd.
In full transparency, I must acknowledge this Police Department has dealt with complaints of excessive force and misconduct in the past. I recognized that this history would change the relationship between Police and the community for many years to come. As the new Police Chief, I assembled a team of qualified diverse officers to help change the culture in the Police Department. There was no room for excuses or denial. We have learned a great many things along the way and that the officers would not accept change easily. Rebuilding trust and relationships in the community could not be set on a timetable and would have to be earned.
The Department established goals and objectives as part of this change in culture.
Why do these types of tragedies continue to happen?
Simply, it is a lack of vision, accountability and follow up. Change in department policy must be real and not just politics. And it must be accompanied with a comprehensive plan.
Law Enforcement Executives can expect that there will be limited or no help from outside agencies.
First there must be acknowledgement that change is necessary.
The department must commit to change as we stand shoulder and shoulder with our community.
The Law Enforcement Executive should prepare a plan to the Appropriate Authority for review.
A plan with goals, objectives, timelines, accountability requirements and ways to measure the effectiveness of not only the plan but its implementation. The plan must be publicly available for the entire community to read. It is crucial for the Law Enforcement Executive and the entire Command Staff to know all aspects of the plan. They will have to deliver a unified message to all personnel on how they can take personal ownership in their part of the plan. The plan must include reporting from the Law Enforcement Executive to be effective. There must be a performance evaluation mechanism for the Law Enforcement Executive as well.
To enact change and provide true justice, employment laws need to be changed or strengthened to make it easier to terminate officers before a tragedy occurs.
The public is outraged and rightfully so because they don’t trust or believe that anything will change.
Take responsibility!
Hold people accountable! Be accountable!
Don’t defend or make excuses for bad officers!
Don’t ignore what is right in front of you!
Don’t let this happens in your community!
Take a stand for what is best for our community!
Respectfully,
Chief DeVaul
jamie said:
Statement from Maplewood Chief of Police Jim DeVaul
To Our Maplewood Community,
As Chief of the Maplewood Police, I would like to address the horrific murder of George Floyd at the hand of Police Officers in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Firstly, I would like to offer my deepest condolences to the entire Floyd family for their tragic loss. I am personally outraged at this senseless loss of life. This man died as result of an accusation that he passed a counterfeit $20.00 bill. I am having trouble grasping the reality of this situation. If $20.00 is the value of a human life, then nobody is safe. George Floyd was treated without regard for humanity. There are no excuses for what happened to Mr. Floyd. He was handcuffed, held down by multiple officers, one of which had their knee on Mr. Floyd’s neck and made him suffer as he gasped for air and pleaded for help. These officers must be held responsible for their actions including those who just stood by and did not help Mr. Floyd.
In full transparency, I must acknowledge this Police Department has dealt with complaints of excessive force and misconduct in the past. I recognized that this history would change the relationship between Police and the community for many years to come. As the new Police Chief, I assembled a team of qualified diverse officers to help change the culture in the Police Department. There was no room for excuses or denial. We have learned a great many things along the way and that the officers would not accept change easily. Rebuilding trust and relationships in the community could not be set on a timetable and would have to be earned.
The Department established goals and objectives as part of this change in culture.
- Be a completely open and transparent Department.
- Adopt a “Community Oriented Policing” model putting residents first.
- Create a Community Services Bureau in support of this model of Policing.
- Treat all persons with dignity and respect.
- Support the creation of a Community Board on Police
- Collaborate with the Community Board on Police to make the vital necessary changes to achieve our goals.
- Making Body Cameras standard issued equipment
- Requiring Making Body Cameras be used on all calls with very few exceptions.
- Supervisors Conduct random reviews of body camera video for compliance.
- Hold our officers and supervisors to a much higher standard.
- Not to overlook small violations as they only lead to larger problems.
- Increase officer training and establish expectations as one method of reducing discipline and internal affairs complaints.
- Implement a Juvenile Restorative Justice Initiative as part of Stationhouse Adjustments
- Recruitment candidates of color from the community to reflect our community.
- Conduct de-escalation and peer to peer training annually at a minimum.
Why do these types of tragedies continue to happen?
Simply, it is a lack of vision, accountability and follow up. Change in department policy must be real and not just politics. And it must be accompanied with a comprehensive plan.
Law Enforcement Executives can expect that there will be limited or no help from outside agencies.
First there must be acknowledgement that change is necessary.
The department must commit to change as we stand shoulder and shoulder with our community.
The Law Enforcement Executive should prepare a plan to the Appropriate Authority for review.
A plan with goals, objectives, timelines, accountability requirements and ways to measure the effectiveness of not only the plan but its implementation. The plan must be publicly available for the entire community to read. It is crucial for the Law Enforcement Executive and the entire Command Staff to know all aspects of the plan. They will have to deliver a unified message to all personnel on how they can take personal ownership in their part of the plan. The plan must include reporting from the Law Enforcement Executive to be effective. There must be a performance evaluation mechanism for the Law Enforcement Executive as well.
To enact change and provide true justice, employment laws need to be changed or strengthened to make it easier to terminate officers before a tragedy occurs.
The public is outraged and rightfully so because they don’t trust or believe that anything will change.
Take responsibility!
Hold people accountable! Be accountable!
Don’t defend or make excuses for bad officers!
Don’t ignore what is right in front of you!
Don’t let this happens in your community!
Take a stand for what is best for our community!
Respectfully,
Chief DeVaul
Chief DeVaul,
It is said that one of the barriers to change is the power of the police union. Obstacles to removal of officers reside in the contract between the union and the employing township. Is this your understanding? If so, what contract provisions would you recommend for change when the present contract comes up for renewal?
In prior years, I have heard and read complaints that officer actions that result in serious injury are met with the officer immediately being provided with a union attorney and not being required to explain their actions. I would like to note that these responses are protected by the Constitution and they apply to officers as well as civilians.
Do you support the idea of a license for cops? To me, that seems redundant, since officers have already passed the academy.
Should l.e.o. actions that result in civilian deaths be automatically referred to state jurisdiction and out of the local prosecutor's office?
Next, I would like to hear from representatives of the union. Does the union acknowledge there were problems with our community policing? To what, do they attribute any problems they acknowledge? Have suggestions for improvement come from the officers and their representatives? If not, that indicates a larger problem than that of poor leadership.
I look forward to your response.
FJJ
According to the Force Report, Maplewood policeman James DeFazio used force a total of 29 times from 2012 to 2016. This is 11 more incidents than the next policeman on the list from Maplewood's department.
You'd think that maybe this might hurt his career? To the contrary, he was promoted to Sergeant in the summer of 2018.
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W.T.F.?
Internet videos of two N.Y.C. patrol cars driving into a crowd. At least one woman knocked over onto the street.
Woman knocked over by a cop on a horse.
Woman punched by a cop.
Cop pulls mask off a kid - approximately 8 years old. Then sprays the kid in his face.
Stream of national guard marching down a street, shouting at people to get inside their houses. Then shooting projectiles at people on their porch, while shouting, "Light 'em up."
Female nurse working in a make-shift first aid station. She is patching up a protestor who was shot with a rubber bullet. National guard guy tells her to get out of there. She refused because the guy is seriously hurt. N. guard guy then shoots her with a projectile.
About 100 cops close off a K-mart parking lot. Order everyone out of the lot. Then proceed to slash tires of cars in the lot.
Dear Leader has given encouragement to any and all of this crap: "When the looting starts, the shooting starts."