Panel votes to suspend Ms. Lawson-Muhammad

mikescott said:
Guessing she is a friend of SML and is not interested in really understanding exactly what took place.  

Her interest in understanding strikes me as being, at the very least, at the median in this thread.

Klinker said:
What would "deescalating" in this case have looked like?

Based on Sprout's other comments, I'm guessing the only satisfactory de-escalation would have been letting SLM go without any tickets.

sprout said:

Jackson_Fusion said:
She sped through a school zone & treated a cop who treated her with respect like garbage and tried to go over his head through her voter-granted position.

The cop definitely blew it here and is the one who needs training. He probably should have seen how upset she was, apologized for stopping her and sent her on her way. That would have de-escalated the situation and taught her the right lessons about speeding and pulling rank.

Thank you for providing a perfect example of the general population's understanding of de-escalation, the low priority through which it is viewed, and why training on the topic is needed.

 Oh I’m lots of things, but I’m not general.

Specifically- in a situation where someone has been detained for a violation, what precisely should the officer have done, given your apparent NON general understanding of de-escalation?

Be super specific.

Thanks in advance.

yahooyahoo said:

Klinker said:
What would "deescalating" in this case have looked like?

Based on Sprout's other comments, I'm guessing the only satisfactory de-escalation would have been letting SML go without any tickets.

 I'd take it further and guess Sprout also expects that SLM should have been given an apology and, maybe a cookie, for the terrible inconvenience this caused in her life.    

yahooyahoo said:
Based on Sprout's other comments, I'm guessing the only satisfactory de-escalation would have been letting SML go without any tickets.

 Be that as it may, my question was directed at Sprout.

mikescott said:
I think Sprout needs lessons on de-escalation training.  to every response she gets she escalates the discussion back to how the police officer needed to do more to de-escalate.  Guessing she is a friend of SML and is not interested in really understanding exactly what took place.  

For your reference, I have no relationship with SLM. 

However, I have watched several recorded BOE meetings over the past few years, and been satisfied-to-impressed with her questions and insights on various topics. 

That said, I have no investment in her continuing to serve, and I hope she will not run for BOE next time. It is likely to result in too much focus on this incident, rather than focusing on the perspectives of candidates on district issues.

Jackson_Fusion said:

Specifically- in a situation where someone has been detained for a violation, what precisely should the officer have done, given your apparent NON general understanding of de-escalation?

Excellent question. 

What does the training that SOPD provides on de-escalation provide as the answer?

Better question: when will SLM and Baker resign?

kmt said:
Has it had that effect?

From the SOPD perspective, I don't know. Is anyone involved with SOPD reading this and thinking any of the pro bono process evaluation advice is useful?  Maybe someone can alert Sheena or SOPD to review this? 

More generally -- not yet -- but I can see how it could eventually.

sprout - There is always room for improvement, but in this case you are doing a real disservice to the SOPD. 

sprout said:

Jackson_Fusion said:
Specifically- in a situation where someone has been detained for a violation, what precisely should the officer have done, given your apparent NON general understanding of de-escalation?

Excellent question. 
What does the training that SOPD provides on de-escalation provide as the answer?

But... you said the cop did it wrong.

You said you were more concerned “that (you) see an officer who has not been given training to be an expert manager of traffic stops.” and that “He seems to have been given some training in managing his affect— which is not the same thing”.

You went on to talk about how you expertly managed an interaction with a cop. Twice!

Then you disagreed with someone else’s assessment that the stop went as well as could be expected.

So those view was based on..... what? Just what you think as a lay person with no more insight than anyone else? 

Again- what would you suggest be done differently, perhaps this time without answering a question with a question?

There are some research and manuals one could refer to. 

But my own hypothesis is that if an officer approached a vehicle at a traffic stop with a statement such as: 

• "I'm officer XYZ. For both of our safety, this routine traffic stop is being recorded" 

we might see a reduction in volatile responses at routine traffic stops, and an increase in consistency in traffic stop outcomes.

Anyway, pointless noise aside, it seems pretty clear that SLM should resign after this judgement, but there was also a finding of fault with Baker here.  When will she comment on the fault in her behavior and will she resign?

sprout said:
There are some research and manuals one could refer to. 
But my own hypothesis is that if an officer approached a vehicle at a traffic stop with a statement such as: 

• "For both of our safety, this routine traffic stop is being recorded" 

we might see a reduction in volatile responses at routine traffic stops, and an increase in consistency in traffic stop outcomes.

 Terrific, thank you for sharing your opinion. 

Still not going to resign, I presume.

Klinker said:
What would "deescalating" in this case have looked like?

 Still wondering about this one.  Sprout?

Klinker said:

Klinker said:
What would "deescalating" in this case have looked like?

 Still wondering about this one.  Sprout?

 Sprout has avoided a lot of questions.  I understand that training is always ongoing but in this case that was not the problem.  And Sprout seems very willing to forgive SLM but is looking to place blame on the police officer stating he did not do enough to deescalate the situation.  In reality he continued to do his job, never raised his voice, and remained calm.  

Sprout has not stated what he could (or in their opinion - should) have done differently. 

Time to ignore sprout or only talk about them as if they are not posting on this thread.  

Unfortunately, SLM's threat to call Sheena Collum resulted in one MOL poster accusing Sheena of corruption, in another thread. The poster failed to include in their accusation this response from Sheena: 

"Next, the question has been raised about whether or not the school board member had used her status as an elected official or references to contacting me as a means to seek privilege. A call to me never occurred and I assure you that I have not nor will I use my position of influence to alter the outcome of any police operation."

https://www.tapinto.net/towns/soma/articles/south-orange-village-president-issues-statement-a

mikescott said:

Time to ignore sprout or only talk about them as if they are not posting on this thread.  

After years of benefiting from sprout’s contributions to MOL, I’d advise against ignoring her, but if people must, it’ll be their loss.

DaveSchmidt said:

mikescott said:

Time to ignore sprout or only talk about them as if they are not posting on this thread.  

After years of benefiting from sprout’s contributions to MOL, I’d advise against ignoring her, but if people must, it’ll be their loss.

 I was talking about on this thread, because so far Sprout has failed to respond to questions or comments.  

mikescott said:

DaveSchmidt said:

mikescott said:

Time to ignore sprout or only talk about them as if they are not posting on this thread.  

After years of benefiting from sprout’s contributions to MOL, I’d advise against ignoring her, but if people must, it’ll be their loss.

 I was talking about on this thread, because so far Sprout has failed to respond to questions or comments.  

I think it’s clear at this point the weight that need be assigned to various comments, so maybe we can practice a little de-escalation ourselves. No need to ask any further. Anyone reading has enough info to make a judgement of worth on various views.

Seriously, if SLM wants to see Maplewood’s name ridiculed at length on Fox, she’ll make the argument that sprout is making.  Fighting the ethics committee judgment is bad enough and for the sake of the town (and for their own causes!), she and Baker should really resign.

PS: agree that sprout has a lot of good things to say and has done a lot of good for the community, and her point isn’t even bad but just at this time it’s not the real issue.

De-escalation is relevant to this conversation in that: 

• Increased use of de-escalation techniques can improve community/law enforcement relations; 
• De-escalation techniques could have been applied in SLMs traffic stop pre-emptively and/or during the increase in volatility;
• De-escalation techniques were not applied by officer Horst, despite indications that de-escalation training is provided by SOPD.
• ETA: The media attention to this event provided a (missed) opportunity for our towns to be pro-active in improving community/law enforcement relations by encouraging increased use of de-escalation, and becoming a model PD.

A reference:

A Practical Overview of De-Escalation Skills in Law Enforcement: Helping Individuals in Crisis While Reducing Police Liability and Injury

https://de-escalate.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/A-Practical-Overview-of-De-Escalation-Skills-in-Law-Enforcement.pdf

Some relevant excerpts:

The term de-escalation generally refers to the act of moving from a state of high tension to a state of reduced tension ...When police officers de-escalate a crisis, they conduct an intervention that will assist the individual in crisis in regaining control emotionally and resolve or reduce the crisis to a manageable state.

To effectively intervene during a crisis, an officer must be prepared to dedicate the proper amount of time necessary to de-escalate the crisis and not be rushed. 

Active listening skills are an essential tool when de-escalating a crisis situation, such as one involving a person with a serious mental illness. When an officer engages in active listening, he or she is listening for the total meaning of the words spoken by the individual in crisis. The officer attempts to focus on the actual meaning of the words spoken rather than becoming distracted by the individual’s delusions, hallucinations, or other psychiatric symptoms that may be present. The officer should provide reflecting statements—i.e., “I understand that makes you angry”—to indicate that he or she is listening. The techniques of active listening allow the officer to convey that he or she wants to understand the individual’s thoughts, feelings, and behaviors. The officer should be sincere and genuine so the individual in crisis is aware that the officer is supportive and attempting to lend assistance.

Introducing oneself: Introductions can be an effective tool for promoting communication and establishing a relationship between the individual in crisis and the intervening officer.

Using “I” statements. These types of statements communicate to the individual in crisis that the officer is aware of the individual’s problem or the crisis issues and reflect the sincerity of the officer. These statements convey that the officer is listening to the individual and understanding him or her, and that the officer genuinely cares. Some examples of “I” statements commonly used by officers are: “I can see that you are upset [or angry],” “I hear in your voice that you are worried,” “I’m here to help you,” “I want to help you,” “I will keep you safe,” “I care .. . .I have time.. . . I’m listening,” and “I appreciate your help and cooperation.”

-------------------------------------------------------

For an in-depth examination of de-escalation, here's a link to a long dissertation, titled:

De-Escalation in Police-Citizen Encounters: A Mixed Methods Study of a Misunderstood Policing Strategy 

which starts:

American police have historically struggled to establish trust and legitimacy with the public, particularly in poor and minority communities. 

https://de-escalate.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/De-Escalation-in-Police-Citizen-Encounters-A-Mixed-Methods-Study-of-a-Misunderstood-Policing-Strategy.pdf

(p.77) There are numerous opportunities for officers to actionably reduce the chances that a situation will escalate, particularly from the very beginning of a citizen contact. Police research and training will need to pursue a transactional approach to police-citizen encounters moving forward.

If you read it in a nasally way you can imagine how Tucker Carlson will set it up.

But don’t take any longer than eight minutes.

sprout - Since you're a Maplewood resident, I assume you will inquire of Vic DeLuca if Maplewood Police Department employs these de-escalation techniques. 

De-escalation is a worthy topic for discussion.  It just wasn’t relevant in this instance.  The officer did everything he could to defuse the situation except cower to her intimidation. 

jeffl said:
De-escalation is a worthy topic for discussion.  It just wasn’t relevant in this instance.  The officer did everything he could to defuse the situation except cower to her intimidation. 

Thank you. 

As I said above, sprout is doing a real disservice to the SOPD. 

cramer said:
sprout - Since you're a Maplewood resident, I assume you will inquire of Vic DeLuca if Maplewood Police Department employs these de-escalation techniques. 

Thank you. I sent directly to Chief DeVaul.

jeffl said:
De-escalation is a worthy topic for discussion.  It just wasn’t relevant in this instance.  The officer did everything he could to defuse the situation except cower to her intimidation. 

Look, I know my post with references is TL;DR, but it does actually list examples of de-escalation techniques (and more are described in the linked articles).

So, I'm not sure how you can say that the officer did "everything he could to defuse the situation" when he didn't do a single one of those de-escalation techniques.