NY Times trashing our school district today

kmt said:

No? Maybe?

OK, let’s go with no or maybe: If Millburn’s diversity were more like South Orange-Maplewood’s diversity, Millburn wouldn’t, or maybe wouldn’t, have leveling.

In that way alone, race had, or maybe had, something to do with the reason — the reason being leveling — that you switched districts.

(The next question might be why Millburn’s diversity is different from South Orange-Maplewood’s diversity, but that’s more along sprout’s line of discussion. Thank you, sprout.) 


campbell29 said:

None of these are in any way race or income related. If you were to swap out the top 20% with an influx of a 20% of lower incomes, all this stuff would still exist and would benefit all kids.

I’m reminded, as I often am, of this 1997 Atlantic article, The Computer Delusion.

What about the effect on your district’s teaching?


DaveSchmidt said:

If Millburn’s diversity were more like South Orange-Maplewood’s diversity, Millburn wouldn’t, or maybe wouldn’t, have leveling.

I doubt that, but if true it’s a stronger argument against integration than I’d ever make.


DaveSchmidt said:

I’m reminded, as I often am, of this 1997 Atlantic article, The Computer Delusion.

What about the effect on your district’s teaching?

The article is completely off-base for what campbell is talking about (not to mention dubious even on its own terms).

She was talking about using iPads to replace physical textbooks and make day-to-day tasks simpler.  Hardly digital snake oil (unless you believe the same thing about mechanical pencils and manufactured paper).


kmt said:

DaveSchmidt said:

If Millburn’s diversity were more like South Orange-Maplewood’s diversity, Millburn wouldn’t, or maybe wouldn’t, have leveling.

I doubt that, but if true it’s a stronger argument against integration than I’d ever make.

If you doubt it, I’m not sure why you replied “No? Maybe?” when I asked whether you thought Millburn would be “making the same decisions and setting the same priorities that drew you there” (i.e., leveling). Sounds more like a “Yes” now.

OK, let’s go with yes. Why do you think a Millburn with that kind of diversity — the “significant percentage of poor black residents” kind — would be more comfortable than SOMSD with leveling?


kmt said:

The article is completely off-base for what campbell is talking about (not to mention dubious even on its own terms).

She was talking about using iPads to replace physical textbooks and make day-to-day tasks simpler.  Hardly digital snake oil (unless you believe the same thing about mechanical pencils and manufactured paper).

My memory has a mind of its own; I have the hardest time controlling what triggers it. In any case, what campbell29 was talking about still wasn’t the effect on teaching.


DaveSchmidt said:

If you doubt it, I’m not sure why you replied “No? Maybe?” when I asked whether you thought Millburn would be “making the same decisions and setting the same priorities that drew you there” (i.e., leveling). Sounds more like a “Yes” now.

OK, let’s go with yes. Why do you think a Millburn with that kind of diversity — the “significant percentage of poor black residents” kind — would be more comfortable than SOMSD with leveling?

I think this one is too sophisticated for me, I’m not following.

SOMSD with leveling wasn’t an option, or I probably would have stayed in Maplewood.


kmt said:

I think this one is too sophisticated for me, I’m not following.

Ah, well. Maybe others have followed. If not, at worst I’ve helped keep this thread at the top of the page.


If anything, these discussions tend to provide evidence of some of the larger themes raised in the article. 


This year the Community Coalition on Race did a study on the Demographic Changes in South Orange and Maplewood. They found a distinct increase of White in-movers,an increase in Asian and Hispanic in-movers and a decrease in Black in-movers into SOMA. There is a clear increase in the White population in the elementary schools and the middle schools and that will manifest in the high school soon.  You can find the study on the Coalition web site. How can we talk about white flight? It's not true.


FilmCarp said:

sac said:

 I thought that they took the 5-6/7-8 split plan for the middle schools off the table (?)  

 They did.  That isn't happening.  I also see a lot of posts on this thread and others by parents whose kids have been out of the schools for some time.  Those folks don't necessarily know about the current policies.  That is making this discussion harder, especially on FB.  

 I hope you aren't trying to say that if we don't have kids in the schools we shouldn't "weigh in."  My kids are no longer in the schools but that doesn't mean that I don't try to keep up because I still own a home here and care about the community. (And one of my grown children lives here, so I may have grandchildren in the schools at some point, who know?)  I try to preface most of my statements with "if it hasn't changed" or similar if I am not sure.  And, actually, I believe that the person who I was responding to is a current SOMSD parent.  But it is hard to keep up, whether you are or are not a current school system family.  


galileo said:

This year the Community Coalition on Race did a study on the Demographic Changes in South Orange and Maplewood. They found a distinct increase of White in-movers,an increase in Asian and Hispanic in-movers and a decrease in Black in-movers into SOMA. There is a clear increase in the White population in the elementary schools and the middle schools and that will manifest in the high school soon.  You can find the study on the Coalition web site. How can we talk about white flight? It's not true.

The CCR started marketing to Brooklynites as an approach to address the trend of white flight occurring in the 1990's. We are now experiencing tipping in the other direction -- where the pricing of housing is now so high that only these well-off Brooklynites can afford homes here.

That said, when Seth Boyden students (who tend to be more lower income and students of color than at other SOMSD schools) were finally provided the opt-out to Marshall school starting 2 years ago, the same refrain was heard from Marshall-area homeowners as we hear around other integration efforts: "Our property values will drop!"  So, while white flight may not be the current trend in our district overall, we have the same market forces and self-preservation reactions at play with smaller integration efforts.  

One tremendous challenge in socioeconomic and racial integration is maintaining it. To break systems that currently encourage concentrating wealth (and whiteness) on a larger scale, developing new market incentives that reward diversity are needed.
 


DaveSchmidt said:

campbell29 said:

None of these are in any way race or income related. If you were to swap out the top 20% with an influx of a 20% of lower incomes, all this stuff would still exist and would benefit all kids.

I’m reminded, as I often am, of this 1997 Atlantic article, The Computer Delusion.

What about the effect on your district’s teaching?

 I think given the datedness of this article, the assumptions made really are no longer applicable.  Every kid has a cell phone usually in elementary schools, they play on Xboxes rather than outside, they don't even watch TV, because whatever they want to watch is right on their phone or iPad whenever they want it.

As for the substantive question as to how a tech centric environment impacts the teaching, were they are large range of abilities spread across a single classroom due to economic disparity, here are ways that our schools use tech to keep all the kids working at a challenging level for them, which gets everyone closer to finding the Holy Grail of Education and being able to use differentiated instruction.

1). The teacher acts more as a facilitator than a Stand in Front of Pupils and Speak model.  If, in LA Bobby is reading at a Level S, and Suzie is reading at Level L, where each student has been assessed at the beginning of the year.  Both are given a choice of books to read.  Bobby is reading about the Titanic, the project that he is working on might be to re-create a newspaper from the day the Titanic struck.  Suzie is reading a biography of Louis Pasteur.  Her project might be to pretend to be Pasteur's assistant and write about what they do each day in the lab.  By tying the difficulty of the project to the level of reading each child is given an appropriate assignment.  We really don't do the stuff my daughter did in MSO, which was let a kid choose a book, and then cover the pages in stickies.

2). Lab - pullout program.  We do G&T as a pull out program in elementary.  We also do Lab.  Lab gives struggling students a small group environment to help get them up to grade level.  Kids in Lab get extra time to work with a teacher on the current assignments or on things they don't understand.

3). Science Labs- all our schools have modern, new stem labs.  It lets all the kids do science more as a lab, than a teacher stand and speak.  They have to do experiments and write them up.  Of course they have tests and quizzes, but they are based more on what kids do in the lab than on reading a textbook.

4). Social Studies - again, back to more practical stuff rather than reading and answering... although, this and Spanish are the classes most likely to use and rely on textbook teaching.  However, they do get to do some fun things, like run a simulation of being one of the first colonists, and learning to build their town (kind of like Oregon Trail for middle schoolers).  

5) Coding, Graphic Design, Art, Music - everybody is required to take it. 

6). Math Modules - Math, one of those things that does require a teacher standing and speaking.  However, for kids that can work ahead, we have an online Module program,  Kids who are working at grade level also do modules.  Basically, homework is like Khan acadamy, except teachers have access to who is working on which module and how well they are doing.  For those below grade level, there is Math Lab.

All of these are just some examples I can think of that we do with technology that keep all the kids interested and working at a challenging level at whatever place they are.  The fact that kids are using the same technology that they use in their daily lives to problem solve is probably more helpful in keeping them involved and interested than giving them a list of explorers, the dates, and what they discovered and telling them to memorize it.  Since all of these programs are already in existence, to promote differntiated instruction, I don't think changing the demographics of the town would significantly alter the learning experience.


The more important consideration is that the possibility that a town would churn out 20% of the affluent students in a district and replace them with an equal number of low income students is infinitesimal. 


campbell29 said:

Since all of these programs are already in existence, to promote differntiated instruction, I don't think changing the demographics of the town would significantly alter the learning experience.

This would make me wonder why SOMSD, with its demographics, doesn’t follow 1). through 6). to match the learning experience that your district (New Providence, if I recall correctly) achieves with its demographics. Have you wondered that, and, if so, did you come to any conclusions?


ml1 said:

The more important consideration is that the possibility that a town would churn out 20% of the affluent students in a district and replace them with an equal number of low income students is infinitesimal. 

At the risk of nobody at all following, what I was trying to explore with this hypothetical and my questions is the apparent idea that practices in districts like Millburn and New Providence (and decisions by parents to move there) are unrelated to racial and socioeconomic demographics — that the policies set in SOMSD are addressing phantom issues so we can win liberal merit badges. ... The idea that, as kmt put it in a related thread, “we all want everyone to do as well as they can regardless of race (I think most* of us do anyway)” — and that we’d get closer to that goal if we did things more like Millburn and New Providence. 

*Wink, wink.


DaveSchmidt said:

campbell29 said:

Since all of these programs are already in existence, to promote differntiated instruction, I don't think changing the demographics of the town would significantly alter the learning experience.

This would make me wonder why SOMSD, with its demographics, doesn’t apply 1). through 6). to match the learning experience that your district (New Providence, if I recall correctly) achieves with its demographics. Have you wondered that, and, if so, did you come to any conclusions?

 I think it comes down to a few particular reasons

1).  Infrastructure... The schools in MSO are in bad physical shape, and money and resources need to be allocated to physical plant.  When we toured CHS, the building was literally falling apart in front of us.  Wall tiles had fallen in the middle of a hall, and there was standing water in another hall.  These are immediate needs to fix.

2) Administration....MSO has gone through numerous superintendents, principals, BOE members.  All of which seem to want to implement some educational fad of the day (IB, delevelling). However, they do not have any metrics to decide whether or not any of these programs work or not, and are generally quick to discard something rather than wait for results.  We started the iPad program about 8 years ago with HS, now we are just beginning to roll it out for middle school after seeing what the results were about giving kids iPads.

3). There is resistance in the community to doing anything other than immediately eliminate the Achievement Gap. It is the tail that wags the SOMSD dog.  While its a nice sentiment, eliminating a gap driven primarily by different SES, is probably not going to be solved in MSO.  However, like I listed above there are certainly ways to help all students regardless of race (the pull out Lab program, new STEM rooms, having kids do coding)

4) There has never been complete community buy-in on the policies and procedures that the administration puts forth.  You have parents complaining that the district segregates black pupils, although I know of no other district which allows you to put yourself in AP classes.  You have parents complaining that their children are underserved by putting them in a one size fits all model until HS.  And then, to compound this, everyone starts calling those who disagree with them racists.  Its not a happy, unified community with regard to education, which makes it difficult to implement and test anything, especially if its a big ticket item like giving 2,500 kids iPads.

5) The Taxes... It costs a lot of money to do half of what we have done, and it does get done gradually, but people are generally unified on the fact that the schools need to provide the opportunities to keep pace with the way the world now works.  I very rarely hear anyone complaining about how we have atrocious taxes and crappy schools - which is pretty much a mantra in MSO, every day the sky is falling.

All the stuff I mentioned in my previous posts have nothing to do with race, or class, or parents education, or if your parents don't speak English.  


campbell29 said:

3). There is resistance in the community to doing anything other than immediately eliminate the Achievement Gap. It is the tail that wags the SOMSD dog.  While its a nice sentiment, eliminating a gap driven primarily by different SES, is probably not going to be solved in MSO.  However, like I listed above there are certainly ways to help all students regardless of race (the pull out Lab program, new STEM rooms, having kids do coding)

4) There has never been complete community buy-in on the policies and procedures that the administration puts forth.  You have parents complaining that the district segregates black pupils, although I know of no other district which allows you to put yourself in AP classes.  You have parents complaining that their children are underserved by putting them in a one size fits all model until HS.  And then, to compound this, everyone starts calling those who disagree with them racists.  Its not a happy, unified community with regard to education, which makes it difficult to implement and test anything, especially if its a big ticket item like giving 2,500 kids iPads.

What if I suggested that the wagging in 3) and the complaining in 4) in SOMSD, but apparently not in Millburn or New Providence, might have something to do with the figures (a few years old, from the state DOE) below?

SOMSD: 49 percent white enrollment, 32 percent black

Millburn: 72 percent white enrollment, 2 percent black

New Providence: 77 percent white enrollment, 1 percent black


DaveSchmidt said:

[...] the apparent idea that practices in districts like Millburn and New Providence (and decisions by parents to move there) are unrelated to racial and socioeconomic demographics — that the policies set in SOMSD are addressing phantom issues so we can win liberal merit badges. ... The idea that, as kmt put it in a related thread, “we all want everyone to do as well as they can regardless of race (I think most* of us do anyway)” — and that we’d get closer to that goal if we did things more like Millburn and New Providence. 

*Wink, wink.

Dude, WTH?  What do you mean by “wink wink”?  Please don’t put words in my mouth.

I have never said (and would never say) that the achievement gap in M/SO is not real.  The school system is for all residents and everyone’s needs should be considered.

And I didn’t say that M/SO should be run like Millburn or New Providence.  You asked why I left and I told you, it was a very different question.

Dave, are you a parent?  This kind of straw man argument is really immature.


kmt said:

Dude, WTH?  What do you mean by “wink wink”?  Please don’t put words in my mouth.

You chose the word “most.” I humbly took it, tongue in cheek, in acknowledgment that my opinions in our discussions over the years might disqualify me. I’m always hoping that a self-deprecating sense of humor helps make up for my immaturity.

ETA: As I said, I was exploring apparent ideas. If you object to my framing, feel free to elaborate.


DaveSchmidt said:

campbell29 said:

3). There is resistance in the community to doing anything other than immediately eliminate the Achievement Gap. It is the tail that wags the SOMSD dog.  While its a nice sentiment, eliminating a gap driven primarily by different SES, is probably not going to be solved in MSO.  However, like I listed above there are certainly ways to help all students regardless of race (the pull out Lab program, new STEM rooms, having kids do coding)

4) There has never been complete community buy-in on the policies and procedures that the administration puts forth.  You have parents complaining that the district segregates black pupils, although I know of no other district which allows you to put yourself in AP classes.  You have parents complaining that their children are underserved by putting them in a one size fits all model until HS.  And then, to compound this, everyone starts calling those who disagree with them racists.  Its not a happy, unified community with regard to education, which makes it difficult to implement and test anything, especially if its a big ticket item like giving 2,500 kids iPads.

What if I suggested that the wagging in 3) and the complaining in 4) in SOMSD, but apparently not in Millburn or New Providence, might have something to do with the figures (a few years old, from the state DOE) below?

SOMSD: 49 percent white enrollment, 32 percent black

Millburn: 72 percent white enrollment, 2 percent black

New Providence: 77 percent white enrollment, 1 percent black

 I would say that first off, there probably is an achievement gap here, but it breaks down between Asian/White/Hispanic populations.  In any case, most of the things I listed above were an attempt to show things that the schools could do to ameliorate any gap and challenge every child at their own pace.  As of this point, the gap has existed since before most of us were born, and so far, there is no considered best practice to reduce it, as most of it has more to do with the home environment than the school.

I do think that giving kids portable technology like an iPad which is their own would help disadvantaged kids.  If you don't have a book to read, download one from the school library.  Most teachers have videos, games and exploratory projects on their websites that kids can do at home in their free time which are educational but game based.  Giving a disadvantaged kid an iPad allows the child an opportunity to close some of the digital and social divide, even if its just sitting on your couch playing Minecraft with your friends.

I think that a lot of the constant administrative turnover, the lack of any sort of concrete plan to reduce the gap, and the administration's difficulty in communicating to parents a discrete goal, how the goal is to be achieved and how progress will be measured, has led to a disconnect between what parents want for their children and what they think the schools are providing.    Children who are struggling in school come in all skin tones, as do high achieving kids.  


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