NJT and Those Cancelled Trains

As far as I know Amtrak maintains all of the track that belongs to them, which if you're a local commuter would involve everything once you merge onto the NEC after Harrison. I.e. when the Portal Bridge gets stuck Amtrak is unsticking it.


and the problem across the board is a lack of investment in rail infrastructure.  We could point fingers at Amtrak, NJT and MTA, but the truth is all of them have been neglecting to make improvements, or even conduct necessary maintenance for years.  And now the effects are everywhere.  If you get on an NJT train, take it over Amtrak rails to an Amtrak station, and then board a subway to get to your final destination, on any given day you are more likely than ever to encounter an equipment failure.


At least the ferry service out of Hoboken is generally reliable (knock on wood......)


ml1 said:
The NEC and Penn Station belong to Amtrak, so who would they be "paying" for their use? I think you have it backwards.  NJT is not allowing Amtrak to use its infrastructure.  NJT uses Amtrak infrastructure on the NEC and in Penn Station.

This is why NJT trains on our line get diverted to Hoboken when there are problems on the midtown direct line that reduce the tunnel capacity.  First priority goes to Amtrak since they own the infrastructure.  Next priority goes to the NJT lines that have no other alternative.  Last priority to ours which DOES have the Hoboken alternative.  That being said, sometimes Penn Station and/or the tunnel are shut down to the extent that no trains or only very few can get through, so that Hoboken alternative is an advantage.  (I remember when that was the ONLY way.)


I said “I could be totally wrong”. So, are you saying that Amtrak owns and pays all maintenance costs on tracks through their hubs like Newark and Metropark? If so, I had no idea. I thought Amtrak was the one using “our stuff” (aside from Penn Station) and not paying to fix it. So, tell me this then, why are NJ transit employees/ engineers installing the positive rail system into and in NYC?


conandrob240 said:
I said “I could be totally wrong”. So, are you saying that Amtrak owns and pays all maintenance costs on tracks through their hubs like Newark and Metropark? If so, I had no idea. I thought Amtrak was the one using “our stuff” (aside from Penn Station) and not paying to fix it. So, tell me this then, why are NJ transit employees/ engineers installing the positive rail system into and in NYC

NJT is installing positive train control car-borne equipment on its cars and wayside equipment on the rails it owns such as the Morris and Essex line. I am not privy to their installations on the NE Corridor line, which Amtrak owns, but I would not be surprised if they are installing there as well because the Amtrak and NJT PTC systems are likely incompatible.


All RRs have different equipment, requiring a different PTC solution for each RR. If multiple RRs run on a given line, it may necessitate multiple PTC systems on that line.


hmmm. The cancellations have been frequent on my line which uses Newark Penn (NE corridor line) so I’m not sure about it being mainly Morris and Essex.


I didn’t say it was mainly Morris and Essex.


yes, you are right. And you seem very upset. 


I repeat ... there is almost no chance that engineers are installing PTC.  They are two very different skillsets and, assuming those workers are unionized, I'm sure it wouldn't be allowed.  

However, as someone noted when I posted this fact earlier, it is highly likely that one reason that there aren't enough engineers is that funds have been diverted to the PTC project.  Not to mention that it is apparent that NJT is not getting the funding they need overall AND engineers are leaving to go to work for other rail lines with better pay and benefits and/or retiring and not being replaced.  


PTC is being installed by hired contractors, not NJT employees.


They’ve announced on the news that the Engineers have the right under their contract to take vacation days with no notice. The cutbacks may have resulted in a lower headcount, leaving nobody “on the bench” to replace the Engineers on vacation.



jimmurphy said:
PTC is being installed by hired contractors, not NJT employees.


They’ve announced on the news that the Engineers have the right under their contract to take vacation days with no notice. The cutbacks may have resulted in a lower headcount, leaving nobody “on the bench” to replace the Engineers on vacation.


Vacation can be generous without allowing no notice.  Somebody fell down on the job on that negotiation.  


ml1 said:
The NEC and Penn Station belong to Amtrak, so who would they be "paying" for their use? I think you have it backwards.  NJT is not allowing Amtrak to use its infrastructure.  NJT uses Amtrak infrastructure on the NEC and in Penn Station.

 Correct. What does it even mean to pay a "fair share" when you are the owner? What would that look like? If I own a two-family house and I live in one unit and rent the other, what's my "fair share"? Can my tenant complain that I, the owner, am not paying my fair share? True, my two-family house is not a public benefit like a commuter railroad, but nonetheless it illustrates the point.


sac said:


jimmurphy said:
PTC is being installed by hired contractors, not NJT employees.


They’ve announced on the news that the Engineers have the right under their contract to take vacation days with no notice. The cutbacks may have resulted in a lower headcount, leaving nobody “on the bench” to replace the Engineers on vacation.
Vacation can be generous without allowing no notice.  Somebody fell down on the job on that negotiation.  

 Vacation without any notice makes it impossible to plan or run a business efficiently.  Someone really dropped the ball.


I read something similar today about enginners not being required to provide advanced notice for vacation days. Really remarkable.  It's unfathomable that those engineers do not suffer any ramifications when their actions cause hardship to thousands of commuters.  Got to be a way for the NJT Board or governor to  override this practice (at least temporarily) in the case of an emergency.


If the railroad is chronically understaffed, then the circumstances that would allow for a vacation request to be approved based on sufficient coverage might never occur, which would mean that the engineers would never be able to schedule a vacation. So I could see the union arguing that the staffing issues are not of their creation, and should not impact the ability of the workers they represent to take the time off that they need. 

I'm totally guessing about how this might have come about, but I suspect staffing issues and vacation time are related. I don't know about you, but I'd prefer well rested and vacationed engineers driving my trains, as much as I hate cancelled/late trains. 


Sweetsnuggles said:


sac said:

jimmurphy said:
PTC is being installed by hired contractors, not NJT employees.


They’ve announced on the news that the Engineers have the right under their contract to take vacation days with no notice. The cutbacks may have resulted in a lower headcount, leaving nobody “on the bench” to replace the Engineers on vacation.
Vacation can be generous without allowing no notice.  Somebody fell down on the job on that negotiation.  
 Vacation without any notice makes it impossible to plan or run a business efficiently.  Someone really dropped the ball.

 If they paid enough to retain skilled staff they wouldn't have a problem.  That's the root of it.


FilmCarp said:



 If they paid enough to retain skilled staff they wouldn't have a problem.  That's the root of it.

 So, instead of paying enough to those paid staff, Sweeney's plan is to reduce their retirement plan, reduce their medical benefits and have them pay more for those two benefits.That will certainly encourage fewer of them to move to other railroads.

Then, for new hires, ---- well, you don't need a retirement plan like your fellow employees have.


But when trains are cancelled the crews will be blamed.  And so it goes.



FilmCarp said:


Sweetsnuggles said:

sac said:

jimmurphy said:
PTC is being installed by hired contractors, not NJT employees.


They’ve announced on the news that the Engineers have the right under their contract to take vacation days with no notice. The cutbacks may have resulted in a lower headcount, leaving nobody “on the bench” to replace the Engineers on vacation.
Vacation can be generous without allowing no notice.  Somebody fell down on the job on that negotiation.  
 Vacation without any notice makes it impossible to plan or run a business efficiently.  Someone really dropped the ball.
 If they paid enough to retain skilled staff they wouldn't have a problem.  That's the root of it.

 They absolutely need to improve pay and possibly also benefits (I don't know re the latter), but vacation without notice needs to go.  My husband recently showed me the form he has to fill out to request vacation. The longer the vacation, the longer the notice, but even one day off requires two weeks notice.  I think that they are flexible on that at times ... but that's management discretion, not policy.



kid had to Uber back to hoboken lastNight as train was cancelled without notice while waiting on the platform in SO. Next two trains also cancelled and while hanging out down at the Gasebo listening to music an un scheduled train just shows up. Missed that of course as it took off just as she rain up stairs and opened the platform  door. Only cost another $30 to get home Ugh!!


sac said:
 They absolutely need to improve pay and possibly also benefits (I don't know re the latter), but vacation without notice needs to go.  My husband recently showed me the form he has to fill out to request vacation. The longer the vacation, the longer the notice, but even one day off requires two weeks notice.  I think that they are flexible on that at times ... but that's management discretion, not policy.


 I agree about compensation.  Funny that in the property tax discussions, there are lots of complaints about how much public employees in NJ are paid.  People imply that the state and municipalities need to pay workers less, as if there won't be any effect on the ability to attract and retain talent.  As in everything else, with regard to personnel, you get what you pay for.


ml1 said:


sac said:
 They absolutely need to improve pay and possibly also benefits (I don't know re the latter), but vacation without notice needs to go.  My husband recently showed me the form he has to fill out to request vacation. The longer the vacation, the longer the notice, but even one day off requires two weeks notice.  I think that they are flexible on that at times ... but that's management discretion, not policy.
 I agree about compensation.  Funny that in the property tax discussions, there are lots of complaints about how much public employees in NJ are paid.  People imply that the state and municipalities need to pay workers less, as if there won't be any effect on the ability to attract and retain talent.  As in everything else, with regard to personnel, you get what you pay for.

 Exactly. I hate when people say public employees make “too much.” It smacks of indentured servitude. Like the public is entitled to have public workers serve them and serve them well at a wage that the public decides is good enough. “You’ve had enough, you don’t get more!” 


sac said:


FilmCarp said:

Sweetsnuggles said:

sac said:

jimmurphy said:
PTC is being installed by hired contractors, not NJT employees.


They’ve announced on the news that the Engineers have the right under their contract to take vacation days with no notice. The cutbacks may have resulted in a lower headcount, leaving nobody “on the bench” to replace the Engineers on vacation.
Vacation can be generous without allowing no notice.  Somebody fell down on the job on that negotiation.  
 Vacation without any notice makes it impossible to plan or run a business efficiently.  Someone really dropped the ball.
 If they paid enough to retain skilled staff they wouldn't have a problem.  That's the root of it.
 They absolutely need to improve pay and possibly also benefits (I don't know re the latter)


 Respectfully, do any of us here know that to be true?  


I'm hearing two things,  one is that they're losing engineers to better paying jobs.  Two, from their own job listings, is a laundry list of "preferred" skills.  If you're paying less than others in the same field, then you'd better ease up on the requirements and recognize that you'll have to do more job training for your employees than the other guys.  

Mechanical, diesel, automotive, electrical experience preferred.  Commercial experience as a bus driver, truck driver, subway or train operator, commercial pilot or other heavy equipment experience preferred.

My husband is a public employee.  He is allowed to submit for vacations at the beginning of the year.  He is informed a month and a half prior to the dates if he actually received his VAC time or not.  Try getting good prices on flights and/or cruises with that little notice.  

ml1 said:


sac said:
 They absolutely need to improve pay and possibly also benefits (I don't know re the latter), but vacation without notice needs to go.  My husband recently showed me the form he has to fill out to request vacation. The longer the vacation, the longer the notice, but even one day off requires two weeks notice.  I think that they are flexible on that at times ... but that's management discretion, not policy.
 I agree about compensation.  Funny that in the property tax discussions, there are lots of complaints about how much public employees in NJ are paid.  People imply that the state and municipalities need to pay workers less, as if there won't be any effect on the ability to attract and retain talent.  As in everything else, with regard to personnel, you get what you pay for.

 Only local level and county level employees are paid through property taxes.  State employees, which there are many, are paid through income taxes.  I have never had an issue with income taxes, state and federal both, as they adjust accordingly to our income.  Years we did well, we paid more, years we hit a bump in the road, we paid less.  Income taxes are based more on ability to pay.  My issue with property taxes is that such a large portion of budgets shouldn't be paid due to the fact that in 2004 when I purchased a home I was able to afford X amount.  


Red_Barchetta said:


sac said:

FilmCarp said:

Sweetsnuggles said:

sac said:

jimmurphy said:
PTC is being installed by hired contractors, not NJT employees.


They’ve announced on the news that the Engineers have the right under their contract to take vacation days with no notice. The cutbacks may have resulted in a lower headcount, leaving nobody “on the bench” to replace the Engineers on vacation.
Vacation can be generous without allowing no notice.  Somebody fell down on the job on that negotiation.  
 Vacation without any notice makes it impossible to plan or run a business efficiently.  Someone really dropped the ball.
 If they paid enough to retain skilled staff they wouldn't have a problem.  That's the root of it.
 They absolutely need to improve pay and possibly also benefits (I don't know re the latter)
 Respectfully, do any of us here know that to be true?  

 Red, my reference is an article I read in the NYT, I think, and the interview with the Governor.


I see two seperate and distinct  issues: 

1) the market will determine the engineers' compensation. If NJT can't recruit and retain, NJT will have to pay more. Moreover, if engineers can find a better paying position, they, of course, should avail themselves of the opportunity. 

2) whether or not NJT engineers are the highest or lowest paid in the nation, no engineer should be permitted to simply take a vacation day with no notice. This is not a compensation issue nor is it a pro-union or anti-union issue. It's an issue of professionalism. 


Grambling said:

2) whether or not NJT engineers are the highest or lowest paid in the nation, no engineer should be permitted to simply take a vacation day with no notice.

I don’t think this is permitted. From what I’ve read, the absences that have led to cancellations are unexcused absences — an over-the-limit sick day, for example — and not vacation time, which is scheduled in advance.

Jim has mentioned hearing otherwise on the news, but that report may have been mistaken. Or maybe I am, but in addition to what I’ve read, I find a negotiated contract that allows no-notice vacations hard to believe.


To clarify, my understanding is that it is one-day notice. Definitely heard it on a news report, but I can't remember the specific source. And of course that could be a mistake.

Edited to add that *this much* use of over the limit six days would seem extraordinary.  We are talking about roughly a dozen trains cancelled each and every day for the last 2 weeks.

It's a shame that NJT fails to release a straightforward press release that explains all of this. And blaming it on PTC is clearly a smokescreen. 


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