Making a Murderer (Spoiler alert)
Ok so yes the show is interesting and eye opening as to the injustices that were likely committed in this case, but really, does anyone believe this is the only one? Everyone seems to "surprised" that something like this could happen. Come on! Look up the Central Park Five documentary about the 5 teeenagers that were sent to jail for decades for something they did not do. I don't see much talk about that... Wonder why...
pmartinezv said:
Ok so yes the show is interesting and eye opening as to the injustices that were likely committed in this case, but really, does anyone believe this is the only one? Everyone seems to "surprised" that something like this could happen. Come on! Look up the Central Park Five documentary about the 5 teeenagers that were sent to jail for decades for something they did not do. I don't see much talk about that... Wonder why...
I don't think anyone thinks this is the only one. I also don't think everyone is surprised. Why do you come to this conclusion?
We're just talking about this current documentary that a lot of people are watching at the moment. The producers of this documentary did an exceptional job presenting this case to provide enough doubt that people may be a bit surprised and lean towards Avery's innocence. If the Central Park Five came out as multi episode Netflix series today, I'm sure we would be talking about that as well. Another reason why there may not be as much discussion is the the Central Park Five were exonerated - Avery's current circumstance warranted more discussion.
The story, the character, the pace of the events and the amount of footage the had was pretty impressive.
Unfortunately, after reading up on a few more details, I feel that they left out a few key pieces of evidence.
http://www.techinsider.io/making-a-murder-steven-avery-evidence-guilty-2016-1
I just finished watching this last night. It left me angry and with a lot of questions. Why was there no blood in the trailer or the garage? If she was stabbed and had her throat cut while chained to the bed, why wasn't there blood all over the place? What about the mattress? What about the gun? Why if she was shot 11 times did not one person hear a gun being fired?
Truth be told, I do think Steven Avery is guilty of something related to her death, I'm not entirely sure he did it tho. And it made me sick to my stomach to see how law enforcement manipulated Brenden and used his disabilities to their advantage. Is it even legal for a minor to not have a parent present during interrogations? And don't even get me started on his first appointed attorney and his investigator.
Wow. We binged watched this weekend. Really amazing documentary. I'm actually happy to read more, linked above, because it makes me realize there's a lot we don't know.
jamie said:
pmartinezv said:
Ok so yes the show is interesting and eye opening as to the injustices that were likely committed in this case, but really, does anyone believe this is the only one? Everyone seems to "surprised" that something like this could happen. Come on! Look up the Central Park Five documentary about the 5 teeenagers that were sent to jail for decades for something they did not do. I don't see much talk about that... Wonder why...
I don't think anyone thinks this is the only one. I also don't think everyone is surprised. Why do you come to this conclusion?
We're just talking about this current documentary that a lot of people are watching at the moment. The producers of this documentary did an exceptional job presenting this case to provide enough doubt that people may be a bit surprised and lean towards Avery's innocence. If the Central Park Five came out as multi episode Netflix series today, I'm sure we would be talking about that as well. Another reason why there may not be as much discussion is the the Central Park Five were exonerated - Avery's current circumstance warranted more discussion.
The story, the character, the pace of the events and the amount of footage the had was pretty impressive.
Unfortunately, after reading up on a few more details, I feel that they left out a few key pieces of evidence.
http://www.techinsider.io/making-a-murder-steven-avery-evidence-guilty-2016-1
Evidence showing he's a very dangerous sociopath. No empathy whatsoever.
but do you know that? He spent 18 years in prison for a crime he didn't commit, yet the judge spoke as if he was guilty of that crime at his sentencing for the murder.
I haven't read too much but of course after watching 10+ hours in 24 hours I'm curious.
What I find odd is there was no discussion at all of motive. My attorney busband explained that it's not really necessary or even relevant to establish a motive, but really, why would he kill her? This is a person who had a checkered past but nothing close to this kind of behavior, especially when you (rightly) take out any conversation of his false conviction for rape. It was mentioned that Theresa had visited his property many times before...why would he kill her this time? It's just so odd to me.
It's also clear that the Manitowac law enforcement had an extreme distaste for the Averys that at minimum biased their opinion of the investigation. There was no real contrition was expressed for his rape conviction, which is kind of amazing. I got the feeling their sentiment was sort of "well, he's a bad guy so he should be locked up anyway." I'm not saying he's guilty or innocent, but how is there not enough reasonable guilty here??
That said, I left the documentary not so much with a strong feeling of Avery's guilt or innocence, but a real sense of anger about Brendan Dassey. There are so many despicable missteps there, starting with his very own attorney. For example, I don't understand why they would play the tape of him calling his mother to express his guilt, but NOT the tape we also heard of him calling his mother another time saying he made it up? At minimum it speaks to a young man who is highly consistent, and likely very confused and gullible.
shh said:
but do you know that?
Dousing the family pet in gasoline and throwing the animal on a bonfire tends to be a clue.
Telling his cellmate of his intent to build a torture chamber’ so he could rape, torture, and kill young women upon his release and showing other prisoners diagrams of torture chambers he planned to build on release also tends to clue in on his "character."
he was a kid when he torched the cat. Obviously that doesn't excuse it, but we are not talking about someone of high intelligence (or even average intelligence).
And as far as the torture chamber, isn't it possible he was all talk? I mean he was locked up for all those years...who knows. Certainly I don't.
the torture chamber was not. It was mentioned In the second link above.
The cat was mentioned very early on in the documentary, and several times throughout. It was one of the early crimes Steven was convicted/did time for before the rape of Beerston.
shh said:
the torture chamber was not. It was mentioned In the second link above.
Oooooooh. I was about to say, I must have really zoned out!!
I haven't finished watching this and was hoping they would not be convicted. What happened to the nephew in terms of the interviews, and also his bozo lawyer, is very upsetting. Although this may be an outlier in terms of the way law enforcement works, I wonder how common it is for people to be this coerced by law enforcement. And when I originally wrote that I couldn't believe I missed Downton Abbey, I was only halfway through the Making of a Murderer series, and didn't know the conclusion. Went online and read about the ending thus far.
I remember being in sixth grade when we were all handed ID cards in the gym. We were about to have our fingerprints inked onto those cards, and an announcement was made, 'do not turn over the card.' They didn't want us to see our IQs, which were typed on the reverse side.
Everyone turned over their cards, of course. Except a friend of mine who was always a goody-two-shoes. Anyway, there were whispers suddenly of shared IQ scores, and one girl's (I still remember her name for this incident alone) had a score of 70. There was a hush, and concerned whispers. I imagine that everyone knowing her IQ at such a young age affected her badly.
To hear Steve's nephew tell his mom, 'I don't understand. I'm stupid. You know I'm stupid,' is heartbreaking.
the part I found really upsetting was the nephew. My heart breaks every time I think of him
I believe he did it, but I also believe the evidence that convicted him was tainted and that without the tainted evidence there would have been reasonable doubt. Had Manitowoc County completely recused themselves for the entire investigation and had they not been present (or previously present) when important evidence was found, then I wouldn't have such a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach about the outcome of the case. This isn't to say that the entire Manitowoc County Sheriff's Department is guilty of planting evidence, but it is reasonable to believe that the one or two individuals whose names that kept coming up again and again may have been. Officer Lenk's name came up too many times with multiple pieces of evidence that appeared suspicious. The majority of the department may be above board, but due to the lawsuit they should not have had anything to do with the investigation to avoid even the appearance of impropriety.
To say that Avery seems guilty so it is good that he is behind bars even if some of the evidence is questionable is wrong. The flip side of that statement is to say one is okay with an innocent person being behind bars on tainted evidence because it was thought they were guilty, which is not acceptable.
And though this has nothing to do with the outcome, I found it very inappropriate when the prosecution was on camera saying how had Avery not been released from prison for the false conviction then he would not have been able to commit the murder. It isn't a stretch to see how that kind of thinking (keeping an innocent man behind bars because he might commit a crime later) speaks of the mindset of the prosecution, which is why so many people are willing to believe that Steven Avery was framed.
So basically what I am trying to say (in too many words 
) is that I think he did murder Theresa Halbach, and that the officers investigation also believed he did it. But I feel that they (specifically Lenk and Colburn) realized they likely wouldn't get a conviction on the evidence at hand, along with the added motive of the $36,000,000.00 lawsuit, the evidence was doctored to help make the case.
I did appreciate that the defense tried to make it clear they felt the police were doing this because they believed Avery to be guilty and wanted to ensure a conviction, not because they just wanted to screw the guy. I can only imagine that point got lost in translation by the press, but it's an important one.
TarheelsInNj said:
What I find odd is there was no discussion at all of motive. My attorney busband explained that it's not really necessary or even relevant to establish a motive, but really, why would he kill her? This is a person who had a checkered past but nothing close to this kind of behavior, especially when you (rightly) take out any conversation of his false conviction for rape. It was mentioned that Theresa had visited his property many times before...why would he kill her this time? It's just so odd to me.
She was there about 15 times, but that was apparently because he kept requesting her. Maybe he thought she took good pictures, but since they were just ads for selling used cars I don't think it would be that important to have a certain photographer. It has been reported that she requested that she not be sent there any longer, that she felt uncomfortable being around him.
As far as motive, why does anyone rape another human being? The murder was most likely to cover up the rape, though the cat incident does point to a darker side of this man.
That Ken Kratz made my skin crawl from the first second of screen time. What a sleeze ball.
BG9 said:
Telling his cellmate of his intent to build a torture chamber’ so he could rape, torture, and kill young women upon his release and showing other prisoners diagrams of torture chambers he planned to build on release also tends to clue in on his "character."
The skeptic in me always takes cellmate information with a grain of salt.
shh said:
As did Len Kachinsky.
Unbelievable. I just truly cannot get past him and the gross mistreatment of this case. And he still doesn't seem to give a ***** about it. The investigator - OMG. I honestly feel like if they had shown the jury that entire video it would have been so clear how easily this kid is manipulated. The fact that he started EVERY conversation with "...but I didn't do anything" has got to mean something.
I also don't understand how his mother was not consulted and part of the process. I understand he's being tried as an adult, but is he an adult in terms of attorney-client relationship as well? I was very confused by that.
spontaneous said:
TarheelsInNj said:
What I find odd is there was no discussion at all of motive. My attorney busband explained that it's not really necessary or even relevant to establish a motive, but really, why would he kill her? This is a person who had a checkered past but nothing close to this kind of behavior, especially when you (rightly) take out any conversation of his false conviction for rape. It was mentioned that Theresa had visited his property many times before...why would he kill her this time? It's just so odd to me.
She was there about 15 times, but that was apparently because he kept requesting her. Maybe he thought she took good pictures, but since there were just ads for selling used cars I don't think it would be that important to have a certain photographer. It has been reported that she requested that she not be sent there any longer, that she felt uncomfortable being around him.
Links? Did I miss that stuff in the series?
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I'm sure many have seen this - new evidence came out today in NYTimes article.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/05/arts/television/ken-kratz-making-a-murderer.html?_r=0
It's funny to put the spoiler alert message on the thread, but it is more enjoyable if you don't know the outcome while you watch it.
It really was a great story.