Help Me Understand Brexit/UK Mess

conandrob240

WTF is going on? In reading all the rejected proposal summaries (ranging from stay in EU to leave EU and everything in between), what exactly do they (parliament) want? I don’t understand what’s going on. 


ridski
conandrob240 said:
WTF is going on? In reading all the rejected proposal summaries (ranging from stay in EU to leave EU and everything in between), what exactly do they (parliament) want? I don’t understand what’s going on. 

 I just got back from the UK. No one has a fricking clue what’s going on.


ml1

I'm not going to claim I know any of the nuance about Brexit.  But the day after the vote in 2016, I did write this, which has proven to be one of the critical sticking points in this cluster****

ml1 said:


lord_pabulum said:
ml1 said: not to mention -- once again the British have screwed over the Irish.
Explain.  Ireland and Britain have had free movement of people between countries long before the EU was established.  I think this will have a positive impact on Eire.
no one knows exactly how this will work out, and no one knows whether or not there will be a return to violence.  And no one knows how this will effect trade between Ireland and its biggest trade partner, the UK. There's a reason that Northern Ireland voted to remain in the EU.  Most people there don't see a positive impact for their region.

 


ml1
 said: and fwiw, this is not my opinion, it's the opinion of most of Ireland:
Central to the Northern Ireland peace settlement was a slow but inexorable process of making the border less important. Now it is about to get more important. That may not immediately threaten the peace process, but it certainly requires a resetting of the tri-partite relationships between Ireland, Britain and the North.
Aside from the immediate political and economic effects - which are likely to be considerable and adverse - it will necessitate the remaking of Ireland’s place in the world, as relations between our two biggest trading and political partners are sundered in a manner as yet unknowable. Of all the things that could happen to an Irish government short of the outbreak of war, this is pretty much up there with the worst of them.
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/what-does-brexit-nightmare-mean-for-ireland-1.2697702

 


ml1

also interesting to read the posts from 2016 and which predictions turned out to be wrong and which ones now look painfully naive.


LOST

I have  watched the live stream of Parliament time-to-time over the last few days. They just voted down 8 different proposals. They know what they don't want but they do not know what they do want. 


conandrob240
LOST said:
I have  watched the live stream of Parliament time-to-time over the last few days. They just voted down 8 different proposals. They know what they don't want but they do not know what they do want. 

I’m not sure they know what they want. The proposals range from leave EU next week with no plan to never leave. That’s what I’m not understanding. I don’t know the details of the proposals but there seems to be some for either scenario. So what is wanted?


FilmCarp

They screwed themselves.  What they really want is every single benefit of being in the EU, but without any obligations or reciprocation.  If they hold another referendum the entire party will be discredited.  


ctrzaska

Go watch a few Jonathan Pie clips. 


lord_pabulum
FilmCarp said:
They screwed themselves.  What they really want is every single benefit of being in the EU, but without any obligations or reciprocation.  If they hold another referendum the entire party will be discredited.  

Actually if you've been paying attention you'll find that's not the case

anyway the EU hasn't helped it's cause either.  This opinion piece talks of an alternative


ridski

Here's the latest from the BBC. This vote is happening right now.


ridski

And it was rejected. Which means the pathway to Brexit is on the right of that diagram.


jamie

ok, so we all know - no one wants Brexit to happen.  Looks like the lower ight corner would be the path then - correct? 

Is this all solely on the EU departure?  Would the General Election option give the people another chance to not Brexit?


ridski

Lots of people want Brexit to happen. Some people, like my Mum and youngest sister, are convinced that No-Deal Brexit is actually what the Leavers campaigned on, and just want the government to pull the plug already.

No one I met on my last excursion my age or younger wants any kind of Brexit. 


ml1

It's strange to watch this debacle from the U.S. because it looks like the vast majority of people in the UK don't want ANY of the Brexit options that are on the table.  And if one believes the opinion polling, if a new referendum were held now "remain" would win in a landslide.  And yet it seems one of those hated options will be the final result.

It just looks insane to me that it won't be stopped.  It's like watching a car drive 2 MPH toward a cliff for three years, with the drive saying it's not possible to stop and change directions before going over.


ml1
ctrzaska said:
https://youtu.be/-IL2XwSkFJQ

Pretty much sums up what's going on in our country as well.  Replace "Brexit" with "Trump" and you pretty much don't have to change anything else.  Wonder if the 0.1%ers in this country will wake up before our country does something even dumber than electing Trump.


BG9

What I understand is that May wants at all cost to keep the Tories in power. Party over country. She needs the DUP votes to maintain her majority. The DUP being the a prime stumbling over Ireland.

The Corbyn wants to have the government fail so that an election is called. Again, party over country. Even if May's plan is the best for the country should Brexit occur, he's not going to help her get the votes to get it passed. 


lord_pabulum
ml1 said:


ctrzaska said:
https://youtu.be/-IL2XwSkFJQ
Pretty much sums up what's going on in our country as well.  Replace "Brexit" with "Trump" and you pretty much don't have to change anything else.  Wonder if the 0.1%ers in this country will wake up before our country does something even dumber than electing Trump.

 Equating Brexit with Trump is a stretch, even for you.


BG9 said:
What I understand is that May wants at all cost to keep the Tories in power. Party over country. She needs the DUP votes to maintain her majority. The DUP being the a prime stumbling over Ireland.
The Corbyn wants to have the government fail so that an election is called. Again, party over country. Even if May's plan is the best for the country should Brexit occur, he's not going to help her get the votes to get it passed. 

 Now comparing party politics in Parliament with Congress is not 


ml1
lord_pabulum said:


ml1 said:


ctrzaska said:
https://youtu.be/-IL2XwSkFJQ
Pretty much sums up what's going on in our country as well.  Replace "Brexit" with "Trump" and you pretty much don't have to change anything else.  Wonder if the 0.1%ers in this country will wake up before our country does something even dumber than electing Trump.
 Equating Brexit with Trump is a stretch, even for you.

Pie's descriptions of the ways in which neoliberalism has brought pain to the British working class are very similar to those that have been described as motivators for US working class Trump supporters.  


Coffeegretchen

They're pretty confused in Scotland as well.


LOST
Coffeegretchen said:



They're pretty confused in Scotland as well.

 Next time please have subtitles.


Klinker
lord_pabulum said:

 Equating Brexit with Trump is a stretch,0


 Two unpopular disasters supported by the Russians?


ctrzaska

The Russians exploit both RE markets and financial havens pretty equally. 


ctrzaska
ml1 said:
Pretty much sums up what's going on in our country as well.  Replace "Brexit" with "Trump" and you pretty much don't have to change anything else.  Wonder if the 0.1%ers in this country will wake up before our country does something even dumber than electing Trump.

 I wonder.  Trump may still be the better bet for the 0.1%.  


ridski

Found a new, more appropriate chart.


PVW
ctrzaska said:


ml1 said:
Pretty much sums up what's going on in our country as well.  Replace "Brexit" with "Trump" and you pretty much don't have to change anything else.  Wonder if the 0.1%ers in this country will wake up before our country does something even dumber than electing Trump.
 I wonder.  Trump may still be the better bet for the 0.1%.  

 

True. Under Trump, it's not like, say, NYC is going to get access to major markets cut off the way London's about to be cut off from the EU. And those opposed to Trump have a clear alternative in the Pelosi-led Dems, whereas Brits have... Corbyn.


ml1
PVW said:
 
True. Under Trump, it's not like, say, NYC is going to get access to major markets cut off the way London's about to be cut off from the EU. And those opposed to Trump have a clear alternative in the Pelosi-led Dems, whereas Brits have... Corbyn.

My point isn't that Trump is bad for the 0.1%.  He isn't.  My point was that the suffering that exists in much of this country contributed greatly to the rise of Trump's brand of populism.  And if things don't change for the working class, they may in the future turn to an even more extreme reaction than electing Trump.  And who knows what that might be.  If I were a Master of the Universe, and I didn't want the working people of this country to rise up in a backlash, I'd be supporting politicians who would try to figure out a way to address some of their legitimate grievances.  If people had more economic security, affordable health care, and hope that their kids could do better than they have, they wouldn't be as easily manipulated by a demagogue.  And if the country stays on this trajectory of extreme inequality for the next 20 or 30 years, who knows what kind of demagogue that could be.



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