Gifted and Talented program in HS? archived

for ninth grade there is Honors level and then more opens up with AP classes as you get older. The exception is math. She should call Candice Beattys, head of math dept, and find out how her kid will be placed when she enters ninth grade. Most ninth graders are in Algebra 1 (either level 4 which is Honors or level 3 which is college prep*), but many are also in the next level which is Geometry (called level 5) and some are even further ahead in Algebra 2 (level 5). If a student is in level 5 for math and is doing well, then they can be in level 5 in science (Bio for ninth grade, Physics for 10th, Chem for 11th).

*somekids are in level 2 which is very remedial. Scott Stornetta is doing wonders trying to get these kids to move up to level 3 work.

So, answer...we don't call it gifted and talented at high school, but the top levels are available as in any high school around here.

For 7th grade, same thing, contact Candice Beattys for math placement. The advancement starts there.

Thank you, ffof. Are you a school district person?

I'll have my friends get in touch with Candice Beattys. Who is the person or people in charge of advancement/enrichment for non-math subjects?

I was poking around online and saw a state education website that mentioned something about NJ schools being required to use "multiple measures" to identify G&T students. I get that these vary by school district. Any idea what they would be here?

What you mentioned about level 4/honors seems to suggest that there isn't really a G&T program, but I'm sure that can't be true since it's clearly a state requirement. (Sounds like math complies, though.)

http://www.somsd.k12.nj.us/somsd/site/default.asp

here's the district website. If you click on Administration, you can find who is in charge of each department.

Posted By: EniugesI'm sure that can't be true since it's clearly a state requirement.

The state doesn't really enforce it and, other than the math acceleration (and some accompanying science advancement starting sophomore year), the main offerings in this area are a very respectable set of Advanced Placement offerings in addition to the Honors level courses in the high school. CHS still has among the largest number of AP course offerings in the state, from what I hear, although some of those classes are threatened in the current budgetary environment where "low enrollment" courses are likely to be on the chopping block.

The truth is, there is no true gifted and talented program in our schools, which would be more individualized than a high level class, (e.g. Level 5 math). But we do have some high level classes from grade 8 on, and in math from grade 6 -- for now. But these high level, faster-paced classes are under severe attack -- an attack that seems to be picking up force, rather than calming, since the deleveling of 7th grade core subjects other than math.

We used to have a small G&T program in 4th and 5th grade for language arts and for math. But the language arts part of this has been gutted in the recent changes. It will now be a push in program for all 4th and 5th graders (except at one elementary school for maybe one more year -- don't ask me why). Other districts near us seem to have more real G&T programs, or at least to provide G&T opportunities as enrichment to high level classes.

The elementary LA G&T program was NOT gutted. That is false information. The program is now offered to everyone at most of the elementary schools. It is a real program with a real name that I forget right now. The G&T coordinator works with the classroom teacher to deliver the program.

It is not a G&T program. If its offered to everyone its not a bona fide G&T program taught by a teacher who is trained in G&T teaching. I suggest the OP's friend investigate private schools if he is bent on moving to NJ. Otherwise move to another state. He can check with the G&T Society. They can provide real information, not this Nan-sense.

The teacher is trained in G & T. She co-teaches the class with the regular teacher.

In the district where I teach, Springfield, we have a varied G & T program that runs from elementary school to high school. In elementary school it is a combination push in and pull out program where the g&t teacher works with the classroom teachers and also runs separate enrichment opportunities. In middle school it is also push in and pull out. The push in model is part of the English courses where the g&t teacher again works with the content area teacher and then the pull out is an opportunity for the students to explore their individual interests and strengths. The high school offer several opportunities. G&T is still offered and is run like an independent study for the students. We also have AP course offerings and something we call the Collegiate Academy. This is something the students can apply to in 8th grade. It is a cluster of highly motivated high performing students who travel together through classes that are then taught at higher levels with higher expectations. NJ G&T law is so vague that it is up to each individual district to decide how they will meet it. We also have a one to one laptop program in Springfield for grades 6 to 12 which opens up a great deal of challenging opportunities for students.

>the main offerings in this area are a very respectable set of Advanced Placement offerings in addition to the Honors level courses in the high school.

SAC, thanks, but Honors is just level 4, right? And level 4 is, like, nearly half the class? How G&T oriented can it be?

As for AP, it doesn't seem to be available for kids in 9th grade, or am I mistaken? Outside of the accelerated math option I've seen mentioned by various people in these threads, what is a kid who is also accelerated in other subjects entitled to?

I've been following the whole deleveling debate pretty closely and realize my friend's 7th grader would be put into deleveled classes where she would supposedly receive "differentiation." But I don't really understand what that would amount to--there's zip on the district website. This kid is already multilingual and was advanced a grade in an elite public school in Palo Alto. With the whole deleveling thing going on I'm frankly a little reticent to claim the middle schools here will be anything like what this family is used to, but if I could tell them anything concrete I would.

>I suggest the OP's friend investigate private schools if he is bent on moving to NJ.

He and his wife are definitely looking into that (I sent them a list of schools in a 15-mile radius of here), but when he got a load of the taxes he said he started looking harder at the Boston option. One of their kids is a talented singer, though, and the proximity to NY might give them more opportunities if they lived around here.

>The high school offer several opportunities. G&T is still offered and is run like an independent study for the students. We also have AP course offerings and something we call the Collegiate Academy. This is something the students can apply to in 8th grade. It is a cluster of highly motivated high performing students who travel together through classes that are then taught at higher levels with higher expectations.

Ahh, klp32, that's more like it. Thank you very much for that info. My brother in law in Kentucky has described similar programs for G&T kids there.

Others: do we have here *anything* like what klp32 describes?

>But we do have some high level classes from grade 8 on

Edhawk, what are these classes? I mean, what subjects in addition to math?

Montclair also seems to have a more developed G&T program, at least at the elementary level, than SO/M. Might be worth checking out...

>here's the district website. If you click on Administration, you can find who is in charge of each department.

Thanks again, ffof. I think my friend's wife has already tried to get in touch with someone in the district but hasn't had much luck as a lot of people seem to be out at the moment.

>Montclair also seems to have a more developed G&T program, at least at the elementary level, than SO/M.

Thanks, Zuzu. They'd love Montclair, actually.

But are you sure Montclair a G&T program? Guess they ought to check it out. I seem to remember our own suprintendent saying pretty recently that Montclair doesn't have levels, so I assumed that meant no separate G&T either.

No, we have nothing here like what klp32 describes, and I'm thinking years back and wishing we'd given more thought to Springfield!

In pained honesty, Eniuges, if a friend with younger children came to me and specifically was concerned about G&T programs, I wouldn't encourage them to look at MSO right now. At best, MSO pays lip service to the state G&T law in K-8, with a 1-2 hour per week Enrichment program in grades 4-5, and a math acceleration track in the Middle Schools being the only options I've seen before HS. We have a policy on the books, but I've been able to find no hint of processes or programs in place that actually implement it.

We have excellent offerings in the HS for kids who've stayed on track and developed the skills to take advantage of them, but until they get there, the education of G&T kids is dependent on the differentiation skill/will/capacity of each individual teacher, giving kids many places to fall off track, or at least fail to achieve what they might in a system more attuned to their needs.

The current emphasis on the achievement gap, although probably what our district needs, likely ensures that there will be no major changes in how we address G&T issues for many years to come (although there are suggestions that the math audit might lead to an accelerated elementary school math program). It also leads to an environment in which any push to improve things in this area gets one tarred as an elitist or even a racist by some in the community...

We aren't planning to move...we've been here a long time, and have roots, friends, connections, in MSO. We love the towns and expect to make the educational system work for our kids. We love that our kids are living in a more diverse, liberal and culturally sophisticated community than the ones we grew up in. But I don't know if we could make the same decision if we were moving into the area (or to a larger home) today, knowing what we know about the school system and the needs of our particular children. And I don't know how we'll feel after our eldest's transition to Middle School -- next year will be a pivotal one in our relationship with MSO.

(But the good news is this...if next year goes well, I'll be back here saying more positive things. If it goes poorly, I may drop off these discussions as I begin to worry about their impact on property values!)

For the gifted or talented child, the main strengths of Maplewood South Orange are its music and performing arts programs. For a bright 7th or 9th grader with an interest in the arts, this is a good district to choose.

For a child that leans towards reading and writing, the English and Language Arts program is generally good and the teachers are generally sympathetic. History and Social Studies suffers from weak administration. Some teachers are very good, but others have been kept on long after a competent management would have fired them. On the balance I would say that the district is okay for a gifted child with these interests so long as the parents stay involved and don't take the quality of instruction for granted.

For the child with an interest in math and science, this is not a district I would choose. The math program is generally good but suffers from inconsistency in the abilities of its teachers. The main problem is with science instruction. At the middle school level it suffers from a lack of good teachers. At the high school it's okay at the higher levels (5 and AP) but variable at the lower levels. Biology is the strongest area. Physics is middling. Computer science is weak.

The other factor to consider is how willing the district's teachers and administrators are to accept gifted children. Only a small number of teachers (anywhere) really "get" giftedness, but most are open to discussion, especially if the parent has objective test results and brings a psychologist or learning consultant to the instructional team meeting. Unfortunately, some (10-20% here in MSO) are hostile, uncooperative or just plain out of their depth. A district with a genuine gifted and talented program would probably not be as time-consuming for the parents to deal with.

As alternatives to Maplewood, I'd suggest Chatham (for the overall quality of its schools) or Randolph (for an actual G&T program, at least in the recent past).

Thanks susan1014 and gaijin. A little discouraging.

But maybe when they visit us in a couple of weeks they can drop by the school district and talk to some people, get a feel for whether the benefits of the community are worth the hassle it sounds like they'd get in the schools.

Maybe Chatham or Randolph would make sense for them.

I seem to recall that Union County schools, generally, are pretty supportive of advanced and gifted and talented students. I think they have a magnet high school for this, and explicit programs K-12. Was talking to a work-related recruiter a little while ago, and we were comparing school offerings for our daughters (same age, interests). My impression was that the options were greater. I think she lived in Scotch Plains, but in any case, if they do the magnet school sort of thing, depends less which town.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, your friend should keep i mind the overall pool of students and the overall educational level at the school when evaluating programs. This came up in another thread, where a poster was citing Westerville, OH as having exceptional G&T programs. My brother lives in Westerville and we have been comparing curricula for as long as our kids have been in school. There's no doubt that Columbia's honors and advanced courses are taught at a higher level, and better serve my kids, than the so-called "g&t" program does his. Yes, it's better than the other options in Westerville, but it's nowhere near the types of options (eg more AP courses than any other school in the state, a huge variety of electives, comparative test scores for top-level kids in both districts) available to MSO kids.

The Boston area does have some good options, for instance Newton and, I think, Brookline. But NY is better for performing arts, so oyur friend may have to balance that.

I swear, if we changed the name of our level 5 from "advanced honors" to "Gifted and Talented", seems to me we'd have it all solved. Really, half the time people are bamboozled by name alone. It's ridiculous.

A friend sent one kid to Newark Acad and one to CHS. The kids are one year apart and graduated a few years ago. Guess which she thought was the superior school? CHS. She felt that CHS had as good and better teachers. Both schools offer the top levels available to HS students anywhere but of course, CHS is bigger so actually has a wider breadth to offer.

Enuiges...specifically, if your friend wants really good info about the LA programs in 6-12, she should call Gary Pankiewicz, head of the department. He is fantastic. As for singing, you won't be able to beat the arts/music program that SOM offers anywhere. We are one of the top NJ Model Schools in the Arts.

Deborahg, they said they've been looking at Newton.

>About 1/2 the kids are considered "honors" here, and our test scores are much lower here than in places closeby, to put in perscpecitve how advanced and accelerated this program really is.

Campbell, I had noticed that. They could definitely afford Millburn, but I'm not sure it's really their kind of community.

foff, much of this conversation is not about CHS, but also about absence of a G&T program at all before CHS. Your enthusiasm and voice of experience is appreciated, but is not a full answer to the questions at hand.

Also your attitude comes across as a bit insulting -- I am not "bamboozled by name alone", thank you, and don't appreciate being told I am.

>A friend sent one kid to Newark Acad and one to CHS. The kids are one year apart and graduated a few years ago. Guess which she thought was the superior school? CHS. She felt that CHS had as good and better teachers. Both schools offer the top levels available to HS students anywhere but of course, CHS is bigger so actually has a wider breadth to offer.

Ffof, I have three friends who sent their kids to SOMSD middle schools and the high school, then switched to private schools (none of the three was Newark Academy) because they were very dissatisfied with the way their kids were treated in the district.

They're all groaning now under the insane tuition burden, even though at least one of those families is getting finanacial aid. But in terms of academic quality and the sense that their kids' skills and talents are finally being addressed, not one of them has reported anything but relief.

I don't know if any of them tried extracting G&T services from the district, though, so that's why I was asking about that.

Posted By: Eniuges

About 1/2 the kids are considered "honors" here, and our test scores are much lower here than in places closeby, to put in perscpecitve how advanced and accelerated this program really is.

Campbell, I had noticed that. They could definitely afford Millburn, but I'm not sure it's really their kind of community.

There's alot of nice communities that are a bit less "Millburn-esque", that have really strong school systems. If the train isn't a concern, then there are even more places in NJ to consider. I have heard many strong recommendations for the schools Summit, Chatham and Madison. I would recommend that once they have their towns narrowed down that they visit the school's offices and get idea of what they can expect for their child's specific talents.

Newton is very nice, as is Brookline. My mom lived in Brookline for quite a few years. Boston is a much more accessible city than NY, and with all the colleges and universities there is a really vibrant culture.

getting a little touchy susan...who said i was talking to you? we got gaijin and edhawk and jayjayp doing a fine job misstating what is going on in SOM.

Enuiges- okay so we're even. But here are some more...lots of kids in private middle, choose CHS for high school and love it. Look, private is fine - usually it's the smaller environment that can help certain kids. The large middle school and HS environment is not for everyone. But it's no reason to trash the HS and say it doesn't offer enough. It's all there and more for the taking.

campbell- more misinformation. On purpose to suit your I'm-out-of-here agenda. We don't care that you are moving, but stop misleading. Our AVERAGE test scores are lower. Big friggin deal. We have a very mixed school population. You apparently can't deal with it.

I had whispered the original discussion to the OP because I really don't need to be attacked about this. However, I didn't post anything that was untrue. The OP was asking a question. Based on my child's experience here from K to 7, I offered my opinion .You obviously have a different opinion which I have no interest in attacking you over.The schools here no longer work well for my kids so we're moving. We are certainly not the first or last family to make this decision. Feel free to think that our decision is a reflection on our narrowmindedness rather than on the schools.It doesn't much matter to me.

As for the test scores argument - if our average test score in what is supposed an "honors" level is a 240, and the average test score in another school's honor's level is a 265, many people will assume that the class with the higher average will move more quickly, be able to have more in-depth and analytical assignments, and spend more time in substantive discussion than the class with a lower average score. This is, in your words "a big friggen deal" to alot of parents, especially to parents who have the kids with the higher scores.

Many (perhaps the majority of) people who are attracted to Maplewood and South Orange are attracted for the mixed population and the ideal that open-mindedness is a big part of the overall outlook of the community. Suggesting that people "can't deal" with a mixed population is just another way of suggesting that racism is the driving force behind their opinions and the choices they make. It is unfortunate that in this discussion on the EDUCATION of our children, we keep having to play that race/diversity card over and over again. We are, unfortunately, separating ourselves when we should be working together as a community to solve the problem we face.

who played the race card. I know that I mentioned "mixed" referring to the inherent economic diversity in our schools. I don't think you are the only enlightened one kareno.

campbell your numbers offer up nothing. which grade are you quoting? which subject area? no need to really answer, cause you've made up your mind and want to throw around random numbers.