E-Cigarettes. Do you know what's in them? Diacetyl in most of them. Do you know what that is? it's not good, and the FDA is not regulating. They pushed it back to the year 2022 to regulate.
how could anyone think this type of smoking is okay for you? Don't we know better now? It's like cigarettes all over again with the lies and the marketing.
regardless, vaping is probably 1000 times safer than smoking a cigarette, which is really the point.
drummerboy said:
regardless, vaping is probably 1000 times safer than smoking a cigarette, which is really the point.
That may be true for smokers. Although studies show people who are trying to quit end up both still smoking and vaping. I’m concerned with young people who are doing this at age 17 and 18 a lot and thinking it’s safe. Especially kids who use e cigs with zero nicotine. There’s still terrible chemicals like diacetyl in them.
the marketing is not to existing smokers. Trying to capture a whole new audience. It’s the 50s all over again and we’re letting the industry do it again.
the marketing is to kids - regardless of whether they're smokers or not. the science, such as it is, on diacetyl is hardly dispositive, and it looks like most manufactures have gotten rid of it anyway.
I used to smoke, and I think vaping is a much better alternative than smoking.
The diacetyl issue seems to be a bit of scaremongering. This study, on the NIH website, pretty strongly suggests that vaping is a good thing.
yes, to kids who aren't smokers. Your argument only holds water if the choices are a cigarette addict switching to vaping. Yes, then that's better. Not getting addicted to smoking at all is the best bet. Yet here we are with a whole new product being targeted to get kids addicted to smoking. We've been on this ride before.
many vape products don't have any nicotine at all, so addiction is not an issue.
Wishing that something doesn't exist is nice, but that's not how it works. The fact is that vaping is a net positive, coming as we are from the profound negative of smoking.
Smoking is a thing that has been around for centuries (longer?). Now, for the first time in that long history, a safer alternative has been found.
That's a good thing. Less people will die.
conandrob240 said:
yes, to kids who aren't smokers. Your argument only holds water if the choices are a cigarette addict switching to vaping. Yes, then that's better. Not getting addicted to smoking at all is the best bet. Yet here we are with a whole new product being targeted to get kids addicted to smoking. We've been on this ride before.
as usual, I completely disagree with your philosophy. Less people will die if we stop making cigarettes, keep restricting them and keep educating kids that smoking kills you.
The smoking epidemic happened because we were swindled and lied to because of corporate greed. We don’t need another way to smoke. We don’t need another round of “it’s harmless. Look how cool it is. Let’s hook a bunch of teens so we have customers forever. Oops, we were wrong, this one kills you too”.
Your position is based on the notion that vaping is dangerous. You have no evidence that it is, and actually have evidence to the contrary, yet you choose to discard the evidence.
I personally don't get that, but OK.
I hear the 50s and 60s and 70s calling! “Smoking is cool, smoking is great, no dangers here!” Lol
Any foreign substance going into your lungs is not good for you. Period.
Smoke from a fireplace, pollution, car exhaust, etc. All bad for you. The idea that vaping is safe is just wrong. It's "safer" than smoking cigarettes but not safe on it's own.
are you aware that vaping does not involve smoke? All of your examples are of things burning.
yahooyahoo said:
Any foreign substance going into your lungs is not good for you. Period.
Smoke from a fireplace, pollution, car exhaust, etc. All bad for you. The idea that vaping is safe is just wrong. It's "safer" than smoking cigarettes but not safe on it's own.
Yes, I know what vaping is. You are vaporizing chemicals and sucking them into your lungs. One of the common ingredients, propylene glycol, is used in anti-freeze. How is that safe?
I was giving examples of other things we bring into our lungs that are not good.
drummerboy said:
are you aware that vaping does not involve smoke? All of your examples are of things burning.
yahooyahoo said:
Any foreign substance going into your lungs is not good for you. Period.
Smoke from a fireplace, pollution, car exhaust, etc. All bad for you. The idea that vaping is safe is just wrong. It's "safer" than smoking cigarettes but not safe on it's own.
drummerboy said:
are you aware that vaping does not involve smoke? All of your examples are of things burning.
yahooyahoo said:
Any foreign substance going into your lungs is not good for you. Period.
Smoke from a fireplace, pollution, car exhaust, etc. All bad for you. The idea that vaping is safe is just wrong. It's "safer" than smoking cigarettes but not safe on it's own.
The examples may be of burning, but that doesn't matter. The issue is that a substance is in a vapor form, and it gets into your lungs. Formaldehyde from plywood doesn't come out from burning, but there are wood products that emit it as a gas, and that's harmful. Heck, if asbestos is in an intact floor tile, it's not harmful, but break up that tile and let the dust go into the air, it's harmful.
It's very appropriate to be concerned when any substance, which normally isn't going there, goes into your lungs.
I've tried some restraint in not bringing this up because I know some of you will boohoo it. But popcorn lung from diacetyl may be something that we may hear more about in the future. and many of these products do have diacety in them. Look at the vaping rabbit website to see what chemicals are in them. I'll put it up later on this site.
sender said:
I've tried some restraint in not bringing this up because I know some of you will boohoo it. But popcorn lung from diacetyl may be something that we may hear more about in the future. and many of these products do have diacety in them. Look at the vaping rabbit website to see what chemicals are in them. I'll put it up later on this site.
I'm glad you mentioned it. I know that the "butter flavor" in popcorn can be nasty in higher amounts, such as if someone is storing a lot of boxes in the house, for a fundraiser.
From what I've seen about diacetyl it seems to be largely a non-issue these days.
Anyway, the issue to me is simply is whether it's safer than smoking tobacco, and that clearly seems to be the case. Therefore it is a net good, to the extent that someone chooses vaping over tobacco.
As per my earlier post, the CDC seems to think so too.
There is a lot of misinformation on this thread and I believe that it's largely caused by the conflation of two separate topics.
The first is prevention of first use by minors and young adults. I absolutely agree that we, as the adult community, need to be very cognizant of the dangers of early nicotine use and we should do everything we can through education and monitoring to prevent such use by our kids. The accessibility and "stealthiness" of vaping is certainly of concern. However, I don't see this as any different from any other form of dangerous substance use such as cigarettes, alcohol, marijuana, nitrous, opioids and other prescription drugs. We should address vaping in the same manner.
The second issue is whether vaping is safe. As mentioned above, it's clearly safest not to inhale any type of foreign substance into your lungs. But when comparing vaping to smoking, there seem to be some clear indicators that vaping may be a better alternative for adult smokers. You can easily google all the harmful carcinogenic toxins that are released from a cigarette. Not to mention the trash that remains with cigarette butts. I agree that I would like to see more independent research performed on vaping - but the concept is that the flavored nicotine liquid is vaporized at an appropriate temperature to produce water vapor that is inhaled. Objectively, that's a safer mechanism than smoke and ash.
The diacetyl hysteria is largely from a 2010 report that found that most e-cigarettes at the time were using that chemical in their flavorings. That has changed significantly over the past 8 years. Most commercially available liquids from the USA and Japan do not contain diacetyl. If you go to a proper vape shop, you are very unlikely to find diacetyl as an ingredient. Also, keep in mind that diacetyl produced in cigarette smoke is many times higher than what had previously been contained in vape juice.
Propelyne glycol has already been studied by the FDA and has been classified as generally recognized as safe for use as a food additive. It's true that it's in antifreeze - but for brands that want to market non-toxic antifreeze. It's used in ice cream, fast food, alcoholic beverages and asthma inhalers. So let's not pretend that this is some unknown compound.
And before we go down the formaldehyde road - that one study was debunked as an unrealistic test of vaporizing eliquid. Essentially, the test was performed at significantly higher temperatures than what a handheld vaporizer could produce.
TL;DR Kids shouldn't vape. Adults should have a choice, similar to any other legal substance. Vaping may be less harmful than smoking.
Why does the fact that propylene glycol is used in anti-freeze automatically make it unsafe?
Water is used in anti-freeze too, therefore, by your logic ....
yahooyahoo said:
Yes, I know what vaping is. You are vaporizing chemicals and sucking them into your lungs. One of the common ingredients, propylene glycol, is used in anti-freeze. How is that safe?
I was giving examples of other things we bring into our lungs that are not good.
drummerboy said:
are you aware that vaping does not involve smoke? All of your examples are of things burning.
yahooyahoo said:
Any foreign substance going into your lungs is not good for you. Period.
Smoke from a fireplace, pollution, car exhaust, etc. All bad for you. The idea that vaping is safe is just wrong. It's "safer" than smoking cigarettes but not safe on it's own.
good post.
ltc said:
There is a lot of misinformation on this thread and I believe that it's largely caused by the conflation of two separate topics.
The first is prevention of first use by minors and young adults. I absolutely agree that we, as the adult community, need to be very cognizant of the dangers of early nicotine use and we should do everything we can through education and monitoring to prevent such use by our kids. The accessibility and "stealthiness" of vaping is certainly of concern. However, I don't see this as any different from any other form of dangerous substance use such as cigarettes, alcohol, marijuana, nitrous, opioids and other prescription drugs. We should address vaping in the same manner.
The second issue is whether vaping is safe. As mentioned above, it's clearly safest not to inhale any type of foreign substance into your lungs. But when comparing vaping to smoking, there seem to be some clear indicators that vaping may be a better alternative for adult smokers. You can easily google all the harmful carcinogenic toxins that are released from a cigarette. Not to mention the trash that remains with cigarette butts. I agree that I would like to see more independent research performed on vaping - but the concept is that the flavored nicotine liquid is vaporized at an appropriate temperature to produce water vapor that is inhaled. Objectively, that's a safer mechanism than smoke and ash.
The diacetyl hysteria is largely from a 2010 report that found that most e-cigarettes at the time were using that chemical in their flavorings. That has changed significantly over the past 8 years. Most commercially available liquids from the USA and Japan do not contain diacetyl. If you go to a proper vape shop, you are very unlikely to find diacetyl as an ingredient. Also, keep in mind that diacetyl produced in cigarette smoke is many times higher than what had previously been contained in vape juice.
Propelyne glycol has already been studied by the FDA and has been classified as generally recognized as safe for use as a food additive. It's true that it's in antifreeze - but for brands that want to market non-toxic antifreeze. It's used in ice cream, fast food, alcoholic beverages and asthma inhalers. So let's not pretend that this is some unknown compound.
And before we go down the formaldehyde road - that one study was debunked as an unrealistic test of vaporizing eliquid. Essentially, the test was performed at significantly higher temperatures than what a handheld vaporizer could produce.
TL;DR Kids shouldn't vape. Adults should have a choice, similar to any other legal substance. Vaping may be less harmful than smoking.
great post Itc. Please though, just want you to go to "the vaping rabbit" website, look at their disclaimer on milkman product. Is it me, or do they say there's 50ug/ml of diacteyl and it can cause lung damage. Please look into it.
drummerboy said:
good post.
ltc said:
There is a lot of misinformation on this thread and I believe that it's largely caused by the conflation of two separate topics.
The first is prevention of first use by minors and young adults. I absolutely agree that we, as the adult community, need to be very cognizant of the dangers of early nicotine use and we should do everything we can through education and monitoring to prevent such use by our kids. The accessibility and "stealthiness" of vaping is certainly of concern. However, I don't see this as any different from any other form of dangerous substance use such as cigarettes, alcohol, marijuana, nitrous, opioids and other prescription drugs. We should address vaping in the same manner.
The second issue is whether vaping is safe. As mentioned above, it's clearly safest not to inhale any type of foreign substance into your lungs. But when comparing vaping to smoking, there seem to be some clear indicators that vaping may be a better alternative for adult smokers. You can easily google all the harmful carcinogenic toxins that are released from a cigarette. Not to mention the trash that remains with cigarette butts. I agree that I would like to see more independent research performed on vaping - but the concept is that the flavored nicotine liquid is vaporized at an appropriate temperature to produce water vapor that is inhaled. Objectively, that's a safer mechanism than smoke and ash.
The diacetyl hysteria is largely from a 2010 report that found that most e-cigarettes at the time were using that chemical in their flavorings. That has changed significantly over the past 8 years. Most commercially available liquids from the USA and Japan do not contain diacetyl. If you go to a proper vape shop, you are very unlikely to find diacetyl as an ingredient. Also, keep in mind that diacetyl produced in cigarette smoke is many times higher than what had previously been contained in vape juice.
Propelyne glycol has already been studied by the FDA and has been classified as generally recognized as safe for use as a food additive. It's true that it's in antifreeze - but for brands that want to market non-toxic antifreeze. It's used in ice cream, fast food, alcoholic beverages and asthma inhalers. So let's not pretend that this is some unknown compound.
And before we go down the formaldehyde road - that one study was debunked as an unrealistic test of vaporizing eliquid. Essentially, the test was performed at significantly higher temperatures than what a handheld vaporizer could produce.
TL;DR Kids shouldn't vape. Adults should have a choice, similar to any other legal substance. Vaping may be less harmful than smoking.
I took a look. You're definitely correct that one of their flavors contains 50 ug/ml of diacetyl. And they seem to use flavorings that contain diketones. While I applaud their disclosure, I definitely agree that there should be a) more research on the impact of inhaling diketones and in the meantime, b) warning labels on products that use diketones. There was a test performed by VaporShark (an e-cigarette company, so not totally reliable) that found diketones used in a number of flavorings. Click here.
That was three years ago. However, I'll retract my comment that "most" commercially available eliquids from the USA and Japan do not contain diacetyl. I guess that's just my personal experience and it is quite easy to find diketone-free flavors. But, there are clearly a number of companies, such as The Vaping Rabbit, that continue to use dodgy ingredients. As an aside, many people actually "brew" their own juice to control all the ingredients.
sender said:
great post Itc. Please though, just want you to go to "the vaping rabbit" website, look at their disclaimer on milkman product. Is it me, or do they say there's 50ug/ml of diacteyl and it can cause lung damage. Please look into it.
Perhaps a review of the differences between ethylene glycol and propylene glycol would be helpful. In brief, propylene glycol is broken down, by the alcohol dehydrogenase enzyme, into compounds that are found in the citric acid cycle. Treatment for rare cases of this compound's toxicity from overexposure would be mainly supportive - as in maintain fluids (IV if necessary) and using something like sodium bicarbonate to reverse the metabolic acidosis. In fact, to slow this process down, you could maybe give the person a good stiff drink or two, but that is completely unnecessary. The ethanol would slow propylene glycol breakdown by competitive interaction with alcohol dehydrogenase but since its breakdown products are natural components in a common enzymatic process, why get your knickers in a twist. Continued overexposure to PG over the course of days (say in an IV medicine like phenytoin or in topical silver sulfadiazine for burn treatment) can lead to hyperosmalality (high osmolal gap), again a reversible situation. Acute exposure, as in really really high dose exposure mainly causes central nervous system depression. Again, reversible merely with supportive therapy & observation.
And there is hardly any of it in vaping liquids, especially compared to amount in cigarette smoke (upwards of 100 times more).
As for ethylene glycol, when it gets metabolized by alcohol dehydrogenase, it presents the body with an awful problem. That awful problem is oxalic acid. It forms calcium oxalate crystals in the kidney due to its very low solubility in the developing urine. Those crystals shred your nephrons and eventually shut down the kidneys. You usually don't notice that until the kidney's huge reserve capacity is depleted (24-72 hours) - then you need dialysis and a replacement kidney. Unless checked for specifically the symptoms of ethylene glycol exposure are hard to recognize. As before you will also see acidosis and hyperosmalality. In this case IV ethanol was indicated to slow the conversion of ethylene glycol to oxalic acid while you try to get rid of it with dialysis. Nowadays fomepizole is a better inhibitor of alcohol dehydrogenase but it isn't always on hand so ethanol still works.
For you I guess.
conandrob240 said:
there you have it. Clear as mud! Lol
Ethylene glycol = bad. Used to be the anti-freeze chemical.
Propylene glycol = Not bad at all unless at really high doses and left untreated. Very little in e-liquids for vaping compared to cigarettes.
oh c'mon my friend. You have to admit that sentences like this
"The ethanol would slow propylene glycol breakdown by competitive interaction with alcohol dehydrogenase but since its breakdown products are natural components in a common enzymatic process, why get your knickers in a twist."
can get our poor layperson brains in a twist. 
dehydrogenase?
bikefixed said:
For you I guess.
conandrob240 said:
there you have it. Clear as mud! Lol
Ethylene glycol = bad. Used to be the anti-freeze chemical.
Propylene glycol = Not bad at all unless at really high doses and left untreated. Very little in e-liquids for vaping compared to cigarettes.
Dehydrogenase is a common type of enzyme. Essentially removing hydrogens from a molecule.
H H
I I
H - O - C - C - H
I I
H H
BECOMES O=C - C - H + 2H
I I
H H
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Meanwhile our teenagers are lighting up these e cigs, under cute names like milkman, etc. Vaping is a big industry. Even if some don't have nicotine (most do, in differing amounts... a few don't) they have chemicals that can harm. College kids and high school kids are enjoying these. Look into this. Read up vaping + NY times, the vaping rabbit, etc.