Dorm being planned for Valley Street?

Heard about several of our Academy Heights neighbors at BOT meeting on Monday who are concerned about this project moving forward. What’s the deal with this?


All Star motors wants to close up after 30 years. The owner has been looking for partners to develop the property and this makes the most sense financially.  Last year they proposed a 5 story structure that the development committee shot down.  Now they have a 4 story proposal.  It is a private, luxury, high end dorm proposal.  It is not part of Seton Hall.  

   It still needs work, and some are opposed for many different reasons.  One positive thing about it is that there is no tax abatement asked or offered, and by definition it will add no kids to the local schools.  Financially it would be a big help.  

  People at the last meeting were wishing for other uses for the property, but none of the ideas seemed financially sound, and the owner does have the right to sell his property.  The deal isn't by any means approved yet.  The development committee approved the concept and idea, but not nothing is written in stone.

  Personally I think if it is done well it will be an improvement and bring more spending downtown, as well as more revenue to the town.



So this would be a residence for students that is not operated by Seton Hall? 

I don't live in the neighborhood so it wouldn't impact my day-to-day life. So it's easy for me to say I support the idea. I have to imagine if I lived right on those couple of blocks I might be bummed by the change in the view. I'm not being facetious either ... from that part of town I think it's nice to see the wooded hills on the other side of town.  A 4 story building would block that view for some residents.

It would only help with the revitalization of that vicinity. There are lots of stores and restaurants within walking distance that would benefit. Did they announce an anticipated number of residents?

I guess I'm a tentative supporter of the development. 


Are they using the word "dorm" to describe a private, luxury residential building?


That lot has a very severe slope.  The building would be cut into the slope, so folks on Academy Street would not lose their view.  It will impact homes on the side streets approaching Valley.  This type of privately run dorm housing is getting much more popular Nationwide.  If it were run by Seton Hall I would be totally opposed because it would escape taxation.  I forget the exact number of beds, but I think it was around 160, two beds per room, two or three rooms per apartment, sharing a kitchen, living room, and bathroom.  Fully furnished and an on site fitness center, etc.

  Each student would be required to have a cosigner, and there would be professional on site management.


FilmCarp said:
   It still needs work, and some are opposed for many different reasons.  One positive thing about it is that there is no tax abatement asked or offered, and by definition it will add no kids to the local schools.  Financially it would be a big help.  

Another positive is that it wouldn't  generate much traffic - most students probably wouldn't have cars and would use Shufly, the SHU shuttle. 

I'm not a neighbor and wouldn't be directly effected by the dorm although it would certainly help with taxes.  

eta - It should help hold down or reduce the number of single family residences that are used as student rentals.  


cramer said:


FilmCarp said:
   It still needs work, and some are opposed for many different reasons.  One positive thing about it is that there is no tax abatement asked or offered, and by definition it will add no kids to the local schools.  Financially it would be a big help.  
Another positive is that it wouldn't  generate much traffic - most students probably wouldn't have cars and would use Shufly, the SHU shuttle. 

Most student's won't have cars?  Ask anyone who lives near private housing that has been rented out by students about how many cars they have.  The PD and parking authority have been dealing for years with student's living off campus with no place to park their cars and abusing the courtesy overnight call ins. 

As it would bring in taxes and would also not impact the school system, it isn't a hideous idea.  I just hope the town forces them to supply a parking spot per bed.  If not, then the surrounding side streets will be overrun with overnight call ins on a rotating basis like what happens in the residential neighborhoods. 


Would love to hear from somebody who will be directly affected by this. I guess I’m back at the premise. Why is the town providing housing for a private school? Maybe I don’t understand how development works.


Since the facility would not be linked to SHU, why would the structure be limited to housing SHU students?  Kean, Rutgers Newark, and NJIT would also be logical sources of students, as would other colleges and universities in the area.  These students would not be using the Shufly and would be likely to need a car to commute to and from campus. Therefore, I can see the concern over parking spaces.


For a college town, SO has never had much of a college town vibe.  Perhaps this would help with that.


Parking spaces must be provided. A variance might be (probably will be) required as to the exact number of spaces, but the building cannot be built without providing the required number of parking spaces as for any other residential building built on Valley St. 

The proposed building will have to go through all of the planning board processes that any other building would have to go through. Since no tax abatement is being asked for, no BOT approval is required. 



Valley is going to be chockablock with new construction.  This is planned for 479 Valley:

http://www.jarmelkizel.com/por...

The traffic is already impossible.  



annielou said:
Would love to hear from somebody who will be directly affected by this. I guess I’m back at the premise. Why is the town providing housing for a private school? Maybe I don’t understand how development works.

 I'm not sure if I understand your question. The town is not going to be providing housing. The town is deciding whether to approve a private developer's plan to build a privately operated dorm for students.


Can somebody point me to some articles concerning privately owned dorms? I did some searching and all I could come up with were stories about partnerships between private companies and universities. E.g. Montclair State evidently has some of these, but to say they are "privately run" would be inaccurate in this case. They are still run by the university. 

In other cases it seems closer to privately run, though the students are still all from a single institution. "Privatized" would be a better word than "privately run." 

Also in some cases there have been strong disagreements with the local municipalities concerning the tax status. I just read of one where some sort of sleight of hand happened so that the company paid taxes for a couple of years, then the university changed the partnership deal in order to avoid paying taxes. SO officials should look out for this and protect against it happening here.

The way this is described above sounds different - sounds more like a group home for college age students? i.e. not really apartments or it would be called that - more like dorm style housing, but run completely independently of the university and kids from various universities could stay there? Is that actually accurate or are people making assumptions? I couldn't find an example of that. 



From what I’m now reading, residents are questioning why not affordable housing or housing for more potentially permanent residents as opposed to students. I guess it’s a sure thing for the developer but may not be a great fit for neighbors.


annielou said:
From what I’m now reading, residents are questioning why not affordable housing or housing for more potentially permanent residents as opposed to students. I guess it’s a sure thing for the developer but may not be a great fit for neighbors.

 Students can be potentially permanent residents. Sometimes the local Chief Executive. 


I agree with everyone who says that the tax contribution would be very positive, but does anyone have an estimate of what the assessment of the proposed dorm would be?  


The financials are not set yet.  I will try to fill in what I know to answer a few of the questions here.  First, there is parking provided, and a a bike parking and repair area.  No where near enough parking for one car per student.  I think about 60 spots.  Seton Hall has agreed to allow on campus parking for residents who need it.  There is a Seton Hall shuttle stop right there, though.  I don't think it will impact street parking there because you need a street permit to exceed two hours, unless I am mistaken. 

  I think a student of any college could stay there, but their market is clearly Seton Hall.  That is where they intend to advertise.

  The town is not building this.  It is in front of these committees because it does need variances and a zoning change, as it is combining two parcels, one of which is residential.  

  The idea of senior housing or low income housing is nice, but this is essentially a private transaction. No one can force a person to sell their property for below market rates, or to develop a property without a positive cash flow.  The numbers don't work there for much else.  There will need to be a great deal of excavation to set the building back in the property.  

 As far as more local opinions, I would not expect anyone who abuts it to love it any more than I like the apartment building being built directly behind me.  I'm hoping if we follow it carefully we can avoid a few mistakes.  But I can't see just plain opposition to all development.  

  As far as relieving the off campus housing crunch, I think these places are going to be pretty expensive.  I don't think it will get students out of neighborhoods.



Runner_Guy, it is too early in the process for the numbers to have been run yet.  I don't completely understand when that happens.


FilmCarp - Thanks for the explanation. I'm not directly affected and hope that the town, neighbors and developer come up with something that satisfies all parties. Good luck!


HatsOff said:
Can somebody point me to some articles concerning privately owned dorms? I did some searching and all I could come up with were stories about partnerships between private companies and universities. E.g. Montclair State evidently has some of these, but to say they are "privately run" would be inaccurate in this case. They are still run by the university. 
In other cases it seems closer to privately run, though the students are still all from a single institution. "Privatized" would be a better word than "privately run." 

Also in some cases there have been strong disagreements with the local municipalities concerning the tax status. I just read of one where some sort of sleight of hand happened so that the company paid taxes for a couple of years, then the university changed the partnership deal in order to avoid paying taxes. SO officials should look out for this and protect against it happening here.

The way this is described above sounds different - sounds more like a group home for college age students? i.e. not really apartments or it would be called that - more like dorm style housing, but run completely independently of the university and kids from various universities could stay there? Is that actually accurate or are people making assumptions? I couldn't find an example of that. 

There are private dorms run by private companies. University of Wisconsin has this. They're generally set up like a typical university dorm, but students enter into a lease with the private management. It is not managed by the university housing office. See here:

https://www.nytimes.com/2012/0...

Also, there are privately built and run off-campus apartments targeted to college students.  They are built and managed to meet the needs of college students. Usually that means individual leases for each bed in the apartment instead of one joint lease for each entire apartment. The apartment layouts are conducive to student living.

Sounds like this building is going to be the latter.



Shoshanah, thanks. I found that article myself earlier and it didn't  answer my questions. In all cases described there the dorms may be privately run but they are exclusive to the university that  partnered with the company. You couldn't have somebody living there who was not affiliated with that university. 

Also, I got to thinking. Suppose you had a SHU student in the dorm, who got kicked out of the university for one reason or another (low grades, disciplinary issues) or dropped out? Would that person need to vacate the dorm? Suppose a SHU student took a semester off to work. Could they stay there?

Or suppose you had a person of a different age group, or a young person not affiliated with a college, who for some reason wanted to live there. I can't imagine that, but you never know. Would fair housing rules apply? e.g. could you have an elderly person living there? 

There are aspects of this as described above that don't make sense to me. 

I found some other dorm-like living concepts mostly in the CA bay area and in NY city that aren't full-on "dorms" but have some of that feel such as shared bathrooms or kitchens or common lounge areas. They are targeted to young professionals. 

But I couldn't find any examples of a true dorm that anybody could live in or even that any student could live in.


spontaneous said:


cramer said:

FilmCarp said:
   It still needs work, and some are opposed for many different reasons.  One positive thing about it is that there is no tax abatement asked or offered, and by definition it will add no kids to the local schools.  Financially it would be a big help.  
Another positive is that it wouldn't  generate much traffic - most students probably wouldn't have cars and would use Shufly, the SHU shuttle. 
Most student's won't have cars?  Ask anyone who lives near private housing that has been rented out by students about how many cars they have.  The PD and parking authority have been dealing for years with student's living off campus with no place to park their cars and abusing the courtesy overnight call ins. 
As it would bring in taxes and would also not impact the school system, it isn't a hideous idea.  I just hope the town forces them to supply a parking spot per bed.  If not, then the surrounding side streets will be overrun with overnight call ins on a rotating basis like what happens in the residential neighborhoods. 

 If the kids can afford a high-end "dorm" apartment, they will have cars.


cramer said:
Parking spaces must be provided. A variance might be (probably will be) required as to the exact number of spaces, but the building cannot be built without providing the required number of parking spaces as for any other residential building built on Valley St. 
The proposed building will have to go through all of the planning board processes that any other building would have to go through. Since no tax abatement is being asked for, no BOT approval is required. 


 Parking requirements for a dorm are different than parking requirements for a residential building.  For example, a two bedroom apartment will do fine with two spots.  But if each dorm unit has two bedrooms and they expect two students per room, they would need FOUR parking spaces.  Even if students use the shuttle bus to get to class and back, they still tend to take their cars with them when they come to school for the year.

Again, talk to anyone who lives near student housing, parking is an issue.  I'm just saying that so long as this is realistically dealt with before hand and that parking requirements are tailored to a dorm and not regular residential, then it would stop a major headache before it starts. 


spontaneous - The building would be zoned as an apartment building and would have to meet whatever the parking requirements are for an apartment building. There is no dormitory classification.

FilmCarp has been involved in the discussions and has much more information than I do. 

I should add that FilmCarp is a member of a very active neighborhood association and they have been intimately involved in the discussions - at least that is my impression. 




I live near private housing, and they do bring cars. Not only do they bring cars, but they also invite overnight guests who also bring cars that are sometimes parked on the street all night long. 


Maplewood taxpayers should welcome this. The assessed value will increase the share of school taxes that SO pays since it would increase South Orange's equalized assessment, the development will pay full school taxes and not add any students to the district. 





 



cramer said:
spontaneous - The building would be zoned as an apartment building and would have to meet whatever the parking requirements are for an apartment building. There is no dormitory classification.





 So in other words they will not be required to have enough parking for all the students in the dorm.  I think this is very important information for people in the area to know.  


cramer said:
Maplewood taxpayers should welcome this. The assessed value will increase the share of school taxes that SO pays since it would increase South Orange's equalized assessment, the development will pay full school taxes and not add any students to the district. 








 


 I agree that it can be quite beneficial.  I am just urging caution on the parking issue.  Students bring cars, when there isn't enough parking for them they then attempt to call in cars on surrounding streets, rotating the cars called in, which frustrates the parking authority and also frustrates people in the neighborhood.

Build the private dorm, just be realistic about the parking requirements and plan ahead to avoid future headaches.


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