David Ortiz a Hall of Famer?

Just got FiOS and have ESPN for the first time in a decade, and for my first game I got to watch Big Papi demolish the Tigers! Quite a pleasure in an otherwise gloomy season for the Sox.

So, Big Papi is closing in on 500 homers, and has passed Killebrew, Hornsby, and Kaline in total RBIs (he should pass Brett, Schmidt, and Dawson before the season is out). Quite an accomplished career for a guy who started as an amateur free agent signing, then was added as a player to be named later to the Twins for Dave Hollins, and finally was cut loose by the Twins and signed to a modest FA contract by the Sox.

On the other hand, he has been suspected of being a juicer and was outed in the supposedly anonymous 2004 MLB report (he claims it was OTC supplements), and if not for the DH he would have been out of baseball a decade ago.

Then again, he is a major reason the Sox have won three World Series during his time in Boston, and that also counts for a lot.

Edgar Martinez may have to pave the way for him.

Did Jim Thome ever test positive?

as long as Piazza is not in the HOF, I don't see how any writer can justify a vote for Papi. That said, I don't think any of the PED guys should be kept out. it was part of the era they played in, so how you can keep out Bonds or Clemens (even though he seems like a terrible human being), Piazza and the others is beyond me.

but the BBWA has decided they will be the self-righteous arbiters of who "cheated" and who didn't.

Nope - a juicer DH will not get in

I knew I could count on a lot of love for Big Papi on this board! Especially from that wine swilling Yankee lover.

In his (and Piazza's) defense, he has not tested positive as far as we know at any time under the accepted testing regime. If he was juicing before 2004, he certainly seems to have stopped for over a decade. And he has rung up some awesome numbers over that decade.

I am with ml1 on the whole topic. There is no way to know if Biggio or Bagwell or Griffey Jr or any of the other damned good players were juicing or not, since there was no reliable testing regime in place. Perhaps Bonds and Clemens and McGuire and Palmeiro were just the ones who got caught. Because we can never know, we should not be tarring some with that brush while letting others who might be just as guilty get into the Hall. It was what was happening in that era, and the league and the union colluded to allow it to happen even if only through sins of omission on their parts.

Now, with a scumbag like Arod who CONTINUED to use PEDs long after the scandal broke, the rules changed, and a stricter testing regime was in place, I think he should be kept out of the HOF forever.

I don't think McGwire ever tested positive either.

he is compelling because he has been dominant...as a DH. But Edgar Martinez who arguably revolutionized the position has not gotten all that close. And Papi did admit to some sort of use, didn't he? He also is interesting from a popularity standpoint...he seems to have been beloved by the fans AND media, but I wonder if the bloom is off the rose. The behavior that some have loved can also work against him. And, this refusing to play first base because he might get hurt...how is that going over with the fans and media? He just may be Teflon enough though. A-Rod will always be Velcro, not that he doesn't deserve to have a lot of what sticks to him stick.

I think he'll get in. People love Big Papi and having Red Sox Nation behind him will help immensely. I think Piazza will probably get in next year, opening a path for the "everybody suspects him, but he was never actually on a published list of guys who were caught" group.

It might be tougher to surmount the anti-DH bias. It's not necessarily shocking that Edgar Martinez hasn't made it, but the fact that he never even gets close makes you wonder about how Ortiz will be viewed. But in addition to the heavy Red Sox presence in the national baseball media (as opposed to Seattle), Ortiz was a leader on three championship teams and will probably wind up with 200 more homers.

I think 538.com surveyed fans and asked how much should career stats be discounted for PED users. The answer came in at one-third. Of course it's impossible to implement, but might serve as something of a guidepost in the future to separate legit Hall of Famers whose numbers went stratospheric after PED use (A-Rod, Clemens, Bonds) versus those who might have only approached HOF due to the improvement owed to PEDs.

Ortiz's biggest problem is being a DH. Frank Thomas is the only player to make the HOF while playing more than half his games as a DH. However, he was a 2x MVP and played many years at first base before switching to DH.

Ortiz is a pure DH and has played maybe 10% of his career in the field. The biggest positives for Ortiz are his stats and success in the playoffs.

McGwire admitted to taking androstenedione before it was banned by MLB and had his disastrous appearance in front of a Congressional committee.

Then in 2010, he admitted using steroids for several years during his career.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4816607

RobB said:
I don't think McGwire ever tested positive either.

I have no thoughts about the PED angle, but from a strictly baseball perspective I think Papi is head and shoulders above Edgar as a candidate. Ortiz is about to pass Edgar in hits and will finish his career with significantly more HRs and RBIs. Then there's Ortiz being one of the great post-season players of his generation, if not among the best of all-time. I don't know if Smoltz gets in without his great post-season record. I believe Glavine may have been the first 300-game winner NOT enshrined but for his World Series MVP performance (he's sub-.500 career postseason). And I don't think Curt Schilling or Andy Pettitte even get a sniff of the Hall if not for their post-season resumes. And don't get me wrong - I'm not saying Edgar shouldn't get in. I'm simply saying that between him and Papi as DHs, I don't think Papi needs Edgar to pave the way. Edgar was a great, beautiful hitter. Papi is a baseball icon.

Just my opinion.

yahooyahoo said:
McGwire admitted to taking androstenedione before it was banned by MLB and had his disastrous appearance in front of a Congressional committee.

Then in 2010, he admitted using steroids for several years during his career.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4816607

RobB said:
I don't think McGwire ever tested positive either.

He didn't "admit" taking andro. It was sitting in his locker and a reporter asked him about it. The admission that came in 2010 was basically a desperation move when it became obvious he wasn't getting in.

hankzona said:
he is compelling because he has been dominant...as a DH. But Edgar Martinez who arguably revolutionized the position has not gotten all that close. And Papi did admit to some sort of use, didn't he? He also is interesting from a popularity standpoint...he seems to have been beloved by the fans AND media, but I wonder if the bloom is off the rose. The behavior that some have loved can also work against him. And, this refusing to play first base because he might get hurt...how is that going over with the fans and media? He just may be Teflon enough though. A-Rod will always be Velcro, not that he doesn't deserve to have a lot of what sticks to him stick.

Not sure what you mean by revolutionized the position, other than being really good at it.

RobB said:

yahooyahoo said:
McGwire admitted to taking androstenedione before it was banned by MLB and had his disastrous appearance in front of a Congressional committee.

Then in 2010, he admitted using steroids for several years during his career.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4816607

RobB said:
I don't think McGwire ever tested positive either.

He didn't "admit" taking andro. It was sitting in his locker and a reporter asked him about it. The admission that came in 2010 was basically a desperation move when it became obvious he wasn't getting in.

As I remember, the andro was a type of false-flag operation. It was still legal in baseball at the time, but about to get banned, so McGwire displayed it prominently in his locker so reporters would see it and draw the conclusion that he had bulked up with still-legal andro rather than PEDs that had been banned.

Probably. Who really knows for sure?

I'll tell you one thing. His story was moreplausible than Papi's "I dunno man - it might have been some kind of smoothie I drank in the DR" fairy tale.

Train_of_Thought said:

hankzona said:
he is compelling because he has been dominant...as a DH. But Edgar Martinez who arguably revolutionized the position has not gotten all that close. And Papi did admit to some sort of use, didn't he? He also is interesting from a popularity standpoint...he seems to have been beloved by the fans AND media, but I wonder if the bloom is off the rose. The behavior that some have loved can also work against him. And, this refusing to play first base because he might get hurt...how is that going over with the fans and media? He just may be Teflon enough though. A-Rod will always be Velcro, not that he doesn't deserve to have a lot of what sticks to him stick.

Not sure what you mean by revolutionized the position, other than being really good at it.

maybe not the right word but to me, he is the first strictly DH who is worthy of HoF consideration. He did it really well for a number of years. And I agree Papi's numbers are/will be better, I just think there is a DH hurdle to overcome, and I figure Edgar is the first pure DH who should get in.

It's so tiring to hear about who does or does not get into the HOF. There's been so much cheating in this sport from its inception and there are players/icons sitting in Cooperstown who have done no less cheating than these juiced up modern players. Not to mention several years of bias

Rings. Poppi has rings.

That matters.

On the subject of the Hall, I was at the ceremony on Sunday where there was a very strong showing of Montreal Expos jerseys for Pedro. Snuck this shot as I delighted in the happenstance representation of that great outfield of Andre Dawson in left, Warren Cromartie in center and Ellis Valentine in right.

Gosh I love baseball.

ml1 said:
as long as Piazza is not in the HOF, I don't see how any writer can justify a vote for Papi. That said, I don't think any of the PED guys should be kept out. it was part of the era they tplayed in, so how you can keep out Bonds or Clemens (even though he seems like a terrible human being), Piazza and the others is beyond me.
but the BBWA has decided they will be the self-righteous arbiters of who "cheated" and who didn't.

And this other Mets fan, who totally agrees with the above, would add A-Rod onto that list once he retires/is eligible.

wendy said:

ml1 said:
as long as Piazza is not in the HOF, I don't see how any writer can justify a vote for Papi. That said, I don't think any of the PED guys should be kept out. it was part of the era they tplayed in, so how you can keep out Bonds or Clemens (even though he seems like a terrible human being), Piazza and the others is beyond me.
but the BBWA has decided they will be the self-righteous arbiters of who "cheated" and who didn't.

And this other Mets fan, who totally agrees with the above, would add A-Rod onto that list once he retires/is eligible.

ml and W...Let's say no writer speculated whatsoever about Piazza and he waltzed in on the first ballot already, giving us our second Met, so we're only talking about the smug, hard to like, more universally viewed "cheaters" - Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, Palmiero, A-Rod. Would you both still vote yes for all? I guess it's the "as long as Piazza is not in" that intrigues me.

Train_of_Thought said:

wendy said:

ml1 said:
as long as Piazza is not in the HOF, I don't see how any writer can justify a vote for Papi. That said, I don't think any of the PED guys should be kept out. it was part of the era they tplayed in, so how you can keep out Bonds or Clemens (even though he seems like a terrible human being), Piazza and the others is beyond me.
but the BBWA has decided they will be the self-righteous arbiters of who "cheated" and who didn't.

And this other Mets fan, who totally agrees with the above, would add A-Rod onto that list once he retires/is eligible.

ml and W...Let's say no writer speculated whatsoever about Piazza and he waltzed in on the first ballot already, giving us our second Met, so we're only talking about the smug, hard to like, more universally viewed "cheaters" - Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, Palmiero, A-Rod. Would you both still vote yes for all? I guess it's the "as long as Piazza is not in" that intrigues me.

I would vote for Bonds, Clemens, Piazza, Bagwell, McGwire and A-Rod. Sosa is borderline based on performance -- he didn't have a long enough, sustained period of high level play, imho. Palmeiro is also borderline to me. He has a great HR total, but in that era, hitting 40 HRs wasn't all that remarkable. He was only an All-Star four times, and I've written here many times that I give a lot of weight to All-Star selections as a HOF criterion. If you've been selected to the All-Star team ten times, it means you were one of the best of your generation at your position (Ryne Sandberg comes to mind). Palmeiro was really good, but he was really good in an era when lots of guys were really good.

Palmeiro was only one of five to ever have 500 home runs and 3000 hits though. I don't think his numbers were borderline, regardless of how he got them.

hankzona said:
Palmeiro was only one of five to ever have 500 home runs and 3000 hits though. I don't think his numbers were borderline, regardless of how he got them.

I could be persuaded to vote for him if I had a ballot.

ml1 said:

Sosa is borderline based on performance -- he didn't have a long enough, sustained period of high level play, imho.

Neither did McGwire...or Mantle.

Seriously though, I'm not sure how you exclude a guy that hit 600+ home runs in the 90s and early 00s - all the pitchers were on steroids for crying out loud.

Mantle? Really? The guy was #3 in all-time home runs when he retired (I think). 3x MVP, batted .300+ in 10 seasons, life-time .298 hitter, 16x all-star, etc etc. Plus all the World Series appearances and titles.

RobB said:

ml1 said:
Sosa is borderline based on performance -- he didn't have a long enough, sustained period of high level play, imho.

Neither did McGwire...or Mantle.
Seriously though, I'm not sure how you exclude a guy that hit 600+ home runs in the 90s and early 00s - all the pitchers were on steroids for crying out loud.

Even if you cut it with adderall?

And I was kidding about Mantle.