Can Trump pardon himself?

The Constitution is of course wonderfully vague on the question.

If he tried, I'm assuming it would be decided in the Supreme Court, though I can't think of the mechanism that would get it there. Someone would have to bring suit. Based on what?

If we had a court that was consistently driven by sound legal reasoning, I think that Trump would lose. However, since we have a court whose conservative majority sees no problem in making the law fit the decision, rather than vice versa, Trump has at least a 50-50 chance of getting away with it, by my reckoning.


Here's what the Constitution says:

Article 2, Section 2, Clause 1

The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of
the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called
into the actual Service of the United States; he may require the Opinion,
in writing, of the principal Officer in each of the executive Departments,
upon any Subject relating to the Duties of their respective
Offices, and he shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for
Offenses against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.


Doesn't even get a full sentence. And why did they stick this in the CINC clause? It's like an afterthought.


Rudy the G says Donny Bag O'Donuts can commit any crime and pardon himself.  Capisce?


The power to override the judiciary, the pardon power, seems so 18th Century monarchical.

We have Trump claiming rights that are appropriate to the era of the Divine Rights of King. Immunity for the Sovereign.

One claim made is that there cannot be collusion or obstruction of justice because he has the right to stop any investigation. By that reasoning, a NJ county prosecutor or an Attorney General stopping investigations of possible crimes by associates or of himself could also be not guilty of collusion or obstructing justice.

Good thing that Trump wasn't around after our revolution. If asked, would you be King sir? The answer given would be: Of course. What a stupid question.

But then if Trump were around, the revolution would have been lost or sold to the highest bidder.


An MSNBC commentator, Heidi (can't spell last name) says this is a red herring to distract attention from the issue of the message being sent to Flynn, Manafort, et. al. about pardoning them


nohero said:
Rudy the G says Donny Bag O'Donuts can commit any crime and pardon himself.  Capisce?

 Seems like the law is secondary to what's going on these days. Who would uphold the law? I think the answer is that he can pardon himself if he's allowed to do so by Congress. Who's gonna stop him McConnell? Ryan?  The Supremes, starring rookie con Neil Gorsuch?


LOST said:
An MSNBC commentator, Heidi (can't spell last name) says this is a red herring to distract attention from the issue of the message being sent to Flynn, Manafort, et. al. about pardoning them

I don't think Trump is that clever. As one of his advisors said, Trump isn't playing chess, he's eating the pieces.

Anyway, everything is a distraction from everything else.


Giuliani said Trump can shoot Comey and still couldn't be indicted. Someone should ask, can Pence shoot Trump immediately become Prez and pardon himself?


"...eating the pieces." Priceless.


If he can pardon himself, he's saying he is not bound by any law.


Serious question - who stops him? 


GL2 said:
Serious question - who stops him? 

 Mitch McConnell to the rescue!


GL2 said:
Serious question - who stops him? 

 Constitutional norms, respect for the rule of law, and simple decency.












Unfortunately, I can't think of a "Plan B".


The argument is that the only remedy for illegal conduct by the President is Impeachment. 


The President cannot pardon anyone for violation of a State law.


LOST said:
The argument is that the only remedy for illegal conduct by the President is Impeachment. 

 What are the odds of getting enough GOP House and Senate members to commit now, that pardoning oneself is an impeachable and convictable offense under the U.S. Constitution?


nohero said:


LOST said:
The argument is that the only remedy for illegal conduct by the President is Impeachment. 
 What are the odds of getting enough GOP House and Senate members to commit now, that pardoning oneself is an impeachable and convictable offense under the U.S. Constitution?

Not any I would bet on. Again, I think this is a completely phony issue and a distraction.


But I thought a key tenet of democracy is that no-one is above the law???

This is ridiculous. 

(Don’t worry, we’re going through our own version of similar)


...I don't know but he can certainly go fcuk himself.....


joanne said:
But I thought a key tenet of democracy is that no-one is above the law???
This is ridiculous. 
(Don’t worry, we’re going through our own version of similar)

 If only it were written down somewhere. "no one is above the law" is unfortunately, not in our Constitution.



I humbly submit you need a re-write. LOL 


We don't need to rewrite it. To say he is above the law (which he has now done) is to say that he plans to break his oath to uphold the constitution and laws.


Doesn't he first have to be charged with something? This seems like a shiny object to insite outrage which we too easily fall for. It just needs to stop.


BTW, did you vote today?


Can anyone imagine Trump saying the words "Pardon me"?


maps said:
Doesn't he first have to be charged with something? 

 Nixon wasn't.


Klinker said:
Can anyone imagine Trump saying the words "Pardon me"?

 He's more of an "excuse me" guy.



Tom_Reingold said:
We don't need to rewrite it. To say he is above the law (which he has now done) is to say that he plans to break his oath to uphold the constitution and laws.

 On those lines, from what I've read the argument that the Constitution prohibits self-pardons rests on Article II, Section 3, where it says the president "shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed." Since a self-pardon can only ever be an act of self-interest, doing so would go directly against taking care that the laws be faithfully executed.



Scenario: Mother realizes that Pence will be a better president than the Gropenfuhrer. She convinces Pence to shoot Trump so Pence will be president.

 

Pence then pardons himself for the crime.


Using Trump logic, like the Nazi in  Schindler's list, he can shoot people on the White House grounds and legally immunize himself.


Formerlyjerseyjack said:
Scenario: Mother realizes that Pence will be a better president than the Gropenfuhrer. She convinces Pence to shoot Trump so Pence will be president.
 

Pence then pardons himself for the crime.

And the Congress will say its not appropriate to impeach our new president because he was not president when he did it.


drummerboy said:


GL2 said:
Serious question - who stops him? 
 Mitch McConnell to the rescue!

 Typically the legislative branch would act as check and balance to Trump's actions but Congress (led by the Republicans) has clearly decided to let Trump do whatever he wants.


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