2015 D.O.E water heater standards will increase replacement costs dramatically

New energy standards on commercial and residential water heaters could increase installation prices 3 to 4 times. If your heater is old or otherwise challenged you may want to consider replacing it before these regs. go into effect.

www.plumbingperspective.com/start-preparing-now-for-2015-energy-efficiency-rules-on-water-heaters/

Fantastic heads up and thank you! I only wish my water heater wasn't quite so recently replaced but... thems the breaks sometimes I suppose.

I'm glad I replaced my water heater a year ago. This will save me from having that horrible expense for about 10 years. Maybe, by then, technology for the new water heaters will have improved to lower the cost something reasonable.

What!!! I find that article to be Scalding and the changes unneeded unless you are a lobby for the tankless market.

Or condensing water heaters. Imagine... they are forcing a piece of equipment on you that has a 20 year payback period and only a 6 year warrantee!

Sounds like they won't work during a power outage, either.

Thanks Plungy!

Boil your water on the gas range, and carry it upstairs for a warm bath. This is a modern convenience for you courtesy of your regulators. Always looking out for you.

that's what the DOE does increase efficiency standards...they did it for AC units, light bulbs, furnaces...maybe the equipment costs will come down as more units are made

I just read and reread that article. I have a lot of respect for you plungy, but I think you are stretching some things. Yes, there will be some installations that are much more complicated, but not all of them. will it really triple installation costs if the piping needs to be shortened a little and the unit is wider than the old one due to insulation? I can see if you are changing fuel or have a small room with the heater in it and the new one won't fit, but that isn't every situation.
Efficiency is good, even when it costs us some money.

Don't believe me Film Carp, do your own research. Compare the cost of a standard 50 gallon heater with a 50 gallon condensing heater.
Then take into consideration that you need to get electricity to it and a dedicated circiut with an independant breaker at that.
The venting is completly different also, requiring PVC piping to be run through an outside wall instead of the chimney to an approved location away from windows and walkways. This alone can add hours to an install. If removing the old heater's vent from the chimney leaves it oversized for the boiler alone you will have to install a chimney liner to decrease the flue diameter.
Also you have to run plastic tubing to a drain from the condensate pump.
The weight of these units turns a one man job into a two man job. The repair and maintainance is much more complex because there are so many components to fail.
The plumbing connections are the least of your worries with this beast.
Three times the cost may be UNDERestimating.

Right. But not every heater needs to be a condensing heater, right? That is just one type of heater that will be available. I'm not bashing you, I read what you linked to. Won't some companies reach the efficiency goal through more insulation?

Any of the heaters that meets the 0.675 energy requirement are going to considerably more expensive.
The lowest complying heater is about double the cost of a standard heater.
If you need a heater that is more that 55 gallons ie. 75 gallons the way I'm reading the requirements, it would have to be a condensing type heater.
My point being if your current heater is "iffy", you may want to replace it before next year.

I'm going to go out to N.j. plumbing supply tomorrow and buy two Bradford White 50 gallon heaters and put them in my basement next to my two, 5 gallon per flush toilets, my pallet of pall malls and my 10,000 rounds of Russian ammo. Damn them and their regs. (saying all this in jest)

6dave, yer a funny guy.

6dave6 said:

I'm going to go out to N.j. plumbing supply tomorrow and buy two Bradford White 50 gallon heaters and put them in my basement next to my two, 5 gallon per flush toilets, my pallet of pall malls and my 10,000 rounds of Russian ammo. Damn them and their regs. (saying all this in jest)

Too late Dave, I snagged 'em all yesterday.

Does the strongest regulation start at 50 gallons? Just wondering if soon we'll be seeing a lot of 49 gallon hot water heaters...

As a poster said above, I assume this means that should another Sandy, i.e., long power outage occur, I can't at least have hot showers during the outage. For that reason alone I feel I should stock up on a new water heater or two before the regs go into effect. Seems cheaper than a generator!

Too often there seems to be a lack of common sense in government mandates.

Assuming the cost will go up by 4, that 1,000 water heater and installation to be costing 4,000. Over the 10 year life that comes to an extra 300 a year. I have a 50 gallon heater and the label says the average heating cost is 300 a year. Assume the new heaters will be twice as efficient, driving the average heating cost down to 150 a year.

So I'm saving 150 a year in heating cost but paying 300 more in equipment cost. I move from 300 a year to 450 a year in expenses. Its ridiculous. Its not that natural gas is a rare or endangered commodity.

Dang it !!!!!!!!!!!!

But the bulk of the additional cost will be incurred on the initial conversion. Subsequent replacements will cost less because the infrastructure will be there already, but you will continue to reap the benefit of reduced energy usage.

When the benefit of reduced energy usage in this case outweighs the cost (or at least comes close) I'd think this is a good idea. As of now, that "benefit" isn't much of one.

Curious, though, if one already has a condensing furnace, can those existing lines (e.g., the PVC exhaust) be t'd into and used for the water heater? @plungy?

Oh my god, we will have to use more efficient water heaters! The horror! First off, the 2015 date only applies to manufacturing. All lesser efficient models will still be on the shelf while available. It will probably be several years more before stocks run out. On demand water heaters are a great choice, very reliable and reasonably priced. Not hard or expensive to install. They already meet the new regs. The newer heat pump electric tank type heaters are also a good choice and they don't need any flue. I would further recommend that instead of spending thousands stocking up on old water heater products, install a solar water heater which I believe has both rebates and tax credits! Otherwise, if you really need to stress needlessly about government regulation, just watch Fox News instead.

Is there any way to convert chicken sh++ into renewable energy for hot water systems?

you would need a separate pvc exhaust line for the furnace and water heater.

A cost benefit analysis here that only involves one home is purely selfish. As these rules go into effect for heaters, cars, whatever, less energy is used. That helps, if only a little, slow the destruction of our environment. We have to do this. The last generation ate all of the resources, so lets not screw the next one.

6dave6 said:

I'm going to go out to N.j. plumbing supply tomorrow and buy two Bradford White 50 gallon heaters and put them in my basement next to my two, 5 gallon per flush toilets, my pallet of pall malls and my 10,000 rounds of Russian ammo. Damn them and their regs. (saying all this in jest)

Maybe, but I am still working down my stash of Electrasol dishwasher detergent with the real phosphates in it. I've probably got about another year or two of supply before I have to find another source or upgrade my dishwasher.

Rob_Sandow said:

6dave6 said:

I'm going to go out to N.j. plumbing supply tomorrow and buy two Bradford White 50 gallon heaters and put them in my basement next to my two, 5 gallon per flush toilets, my pallet of pall malls and my 10,000 rounds of Russian ammo. Damn them and their regs. (saying all this in jest)

Maybe, but I am still working down my stash of Electrasol dishwasher detergent with the real phosphates in it. I've probably got about another year or two of supply before I have to find another source or upgrade my dishwasher.

I buy TSP from the paint section of Home Depot for laundry, though I'm not sure if it is food safe. And before anyone chastises me, I use it sparingly (like a teaspoon) and only when needed for stuff that is very soiled or has oil stains. I bought a small bag well over a year ago, probably closer to two years, and I'm still nowhere near the bottom.

Back to the OP, it looks like most of the changes are going to hit the 50 gallon heaters the hardest. I looked in the basement and we have a 40 gallon tank. How much of an issue will this be for those with smaller tanks than the 50 size mentioned. Ours is only 1 year old so with any luck we won't have to worry about this for some time.

tourn said:

Oh my god, we will have to use more efficient water heaters! The horror! First off, the 2015 date only applies to manufacturing. All lesser efficient models will still be on the shelf while available. It will probably be several years more before stocks run out. On demand water heaters are a great choice, very reliable and reasonably priced. Not hard or expensive to install. They already meet the new regs. The newer heat pump electric tank type heaters are also a good choice and they don't need any flue. I would further recommend that instead of spending thousands stocking up on old water heater products, install a solar water heater which I believe has both rebates and tax credits! Otherwise, if you really need to stress needlessly about government regulation, just watch Fox News instead.

That's Right, just install a heat pump water heater. 1300.00 to 2000.00 for the 50 gal. unit plus installation which includes putting in an outdoor condenser. Kind of like the cost for installing a mini-split AC system but more because of the plumbing connections involved. Or just throw some panels on your roof and install a solar water heater!

BTW Obama (who I support) took sharp criticism from environmental lobbies for not making these options compulsory.

Don't laugh about the hoarding thing. The existing reserves of standard water heaters are going to disappear rapidly and the price for those will increase dramatically also like it has for Freon etc.

On demand water heaters...mixed reviews. We had a sales rep from Bradford White come to one of our plumbing association meetings. After he gave us his required schpeel admitted that they were not so great this far north due to incoming water temps and that if there are large demand requirements it is sometimes necessary to install two of them in series.